Kansuke, I am familiar with the contents of that book, but that wasn't the question. Out of your study and your experiences what do you believe? What concept or thought or feeling has lodged in your heart as a ringing truth of this world or the next?

Here's another of mine: God loves us and expresses that love as a father does. This means that as a father he respects our free agency (and everybody's free agency) our ability to make our own choices is one thing He won't infringe on, but as a father He is always there for advice and help but we need to go to Him to get it. Is He omnipotent? Yes, but He chooses to not excersize that power in ways that will interfere with our choices, or our right to choose. Is He omniprescient? Yes, He is aware of all that happens, to lie to Him is futile and a reflection of our own choice to try to lie to ourselves. How about omnipresent? No, He doesn't need to be. Being omnipotent and omniprescient obliviates a need for omnipresence.



I am sorry for your loss, old though it is I am sure you still miss him, miss everything he should have been for you. I am sorry that well meaning family pushed on you a religeon you were not ready to understand. I have heard prayer described as pleading with thunderstorms and I understand the perception even though I don't feel the same.

The need to be accepted is a powerful force and explains many wierd things but not everything.



Interestingly the most whole, creative and genuine people I know are ones who have a religeon but have kept an open mind about holistic health and other fringe practices. The first teacher my autistic son had was one such person. She was not young and had fractured the bones in her foot into a lot of little pieces. It looked like extensive and iffy surgery to fix it. She asked for, and was given, a preisthood blessing and when they x-rayed her foot just prior to the surgery all the little pieces had realigned making the surgery much easier and success much more assured. Her doctor still doubted it would ever properly heal, she was around 50 years old, but she knew better. The next summer while school was out she spent her time off working on her energy flows or energy healing or something like that, I never quite understood what she meant, and at her next annual appointment she floored her doctor with a completely well foot.

 

 

 

Reply

Very well... I will attempt to give a brief list of the huge number of things I believe.

[1] I believe in the concept, and existence of the Holy Trinity. The Son is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, but the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit, and the Father is not the Son or The Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. If you could not understand that, below is a diagram:


[2] I believe the Bible to be the Word of God. It was not written by God, however, it was written by man through the direct inspiration of God. It reveals all that God wills us to know about him, though (much like the trinity concept above) we could never understand much of it.

[3] I believe that Christianity (in its true form (non-denominational, not catholic, not protestant, simply: believing what God has given us in His Holy Word, and serving Him) is the only true religion. Consider this if you desire evidence: Christianity is the only religion in the world where salvation is not earned through what we do. It is a free gift from God. We are saved by what He did. It completely escapes the borders of human imagination, where the thought of earning salvation, would easily be concieved due to human pride, etc.

[4] I believe God created the universe, planets, earth, and the life on it. As well, earth has been especially designed to support life.

[5] I believe the only way to salvation (or some sort of paradise, as you may not agree on what heaven, etc. is) is the free gift from Christ. On a similar note, I believe that Heaven is only a container. Not a permanent place for the saved. I do believe in eternal life, but I do not believe we will reside in Heaven for an eternity. There is no evidence in the bible to support that we will reside in Heaven as it is described, for an eternity, so it must be somewhere else. Some have suggested that it is a new earth.

[6] I do not believe the rapture will occur. I feel there is not enough evidence to support it. But if it does happen, yay! If it doesn't happen, yay! Really it does not matter to me. In the end, the result is the same.

Well there you go...

 

 

 

Reply

There is a reason for Him to have omnipresence: Given certain verses (Matthew 3:16; Luke 3:22; John 14:23; 1 Corinthians 6:19), one can come to the conclusion that omnipresence is required in order to be capable of dwelling within hundreds of people. True, omnipresence isn't really needed for knowing things.

Reply

Very nicely expressed, Kansuke, thank you.



Firstly, Truefusion, the first of those verses says something very different than omnipresence. Matthew 3:16-17 specificly lays out that there are three personages acting there in that moment, Christ the Son, the Spirit of God and The Father. Christ being there physically, having just been baptized, sees the Spirit of God "descending like a dove, and lighting upon him" and then the Father speaks from the heavens with the famous line, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." And then your second reference, Luke 3:22, backs this up with another accounting of the same event also placing three personages at this critical moment. That this incident is given an accounting of twice and with the same important details says that this is not a mistranslation but a true accounting of events. Remember my first post? "God does not lie." God does not pull a fast one to deliberately leave people with a false impression.

Now, John 14:23. You seem to be refering to the last line where he says, A bit ambiguous and patently impossible for him to do for every one who believes if he is not omnipresent which is why 1 John 3:24 becomes important to clarify this.

The Spirit that is refered to can be omnipresent, but The Father Himself is not, if he were there would be no reason for the Spirit, the Holy Ghost, to be doing a job that The Father could do. For some clarification check out Acts 2:2-4.

Now, I'm tired so I'm done for now. In the meantime you might want to recheck your 1 Corinthians 6:19 reference and look around for references to the Holy Ghost and the Creation.

Reply

Ok, Vixen_Poetic. You and truefusion are arguing two different points... at least how I see it.

If truefusion is talking about God being omnipresent, then truefusion is indeed correct. For example, take a look at the trinity Diagram I have posted. Since the Spirit (which is in every believer at one time) is God, then God is omnipresent.

As it would appear that Vixen_Poetic is reffering to the Father alone, regardless of the Holy Spirit, and the Son, then techinically Vixen_Poetic is correct...


So really you're both correct (a far as I can see)...

But on another note: Just because he does not need to be omnipresent, doesn't mean he couldn't be. Remember God only chose to reveal so much to us. So He (God the father) may as well be omnipresent as not...

Oh: I just found this on http://gotquestions.org

Take a look at said verses... they may reveal more...

Reply

Hi,

Interesting topic opened. I have read all the posts made by the other members but I will not quote anyone's sentences as I would like to first explain what I believe in and why I do not wish to quote another member's words

My belief in life is something that is very simple to follow yet very difficult, I mean it is a paradox in itself. A few years ago I was an atheist but then as I became more spiritually aware due to my friends, boyfriend and especially my depression. I started thinking whether there was a God or not.

my belief is written below but mind you it isn't clear as I myself have not spoken this with much people :

So this is my belief in life so far, living life to me is all about love and not ego. To me the day starts and ends with loving.. Not just my lover or my family but love everything I see, to love some is natural for me as it is natural to everybody else. It is only when we add a dash of ego that the trouble begins.

I try to live life through the third person's eyes or in short see myself in everyone around me. When you know that you are one with everyone else, you tend to be more calm,patient,happy and overall peaceful. Very difficult to do when you have your ego stalking you around
To me, there is no destiny,karma,fate,past,future or so on... There is only one phase going on and that is happening as we speak.. My soul is what speaks to me and my soul is nothing but my love...

So I can safely say that my love/soul is eternally flowing through my body like the way blood would. Now having a depression might look like a minus point to some but I thoroughly enjoy my depression whenever it hits me.. When I say enjoy, I merely listen to how my ego is trying to get its way.. Bring me into pity,sorrow,regret and so on.

But when you stop pitying yourself and starting loving,caring nourishing yourself there is no time for the depression to attack you.... I tend to get very creative or highly active spiritually when I have a depression so I guess I have learn t to embrace it
To me there is no suffering merely something to make you closer with your heart for every time you feel bad or hurt you look to your heart or somebody's "love" to heal you so instead of looking at some one else.. I ask my own heart to heal me...

Now coming to the aspect of religion and why I usually do not speak regarding the subject..

According to me religion was introduced to people so that they could focus their spiritual energy in the positive direction.
To make sure that the people treated others like they would treat themselves, to help benefit those who needed help and especially to make all of the people one

When originally the religions were created, it was created out of love and concern of the people like the way our parents would make rules to shape our lives. To make people follow these rules honestly heaven and hell was introduced in the picture.
But before long, ego started flowing from every corner... Instead of the people's opinions heads started making restrictions because they felt it was right leading to all kinds of divisions among people..

I have had many arguments and debates regarding the religion and how it is being treated now. Because to me the world would benefit from just one belief rather than a million beliefs that have one common root........ To love

And nowadays I do not have these arguments but instead discuss my belief as I can see the person in front of me happy believing his God... And It would be wrong of me to ask the person to stop worshiping his God just because I feel that my belief is stronger.

The most common teaching in every holy book or religion is to love thy neighbor, to treat them as equals. But sadly nowadays religion is merely a tool for politics whether personal or professional. Take the terrorism and riots going on all over the world as a big example, they are showing their love but the mixture they are using is wrong... Instead of Love + Love, they are using Love + Insecurities + Materialistic attraction + Fear + Ego which has a disastrous effect.

Sorry if I went adrift or if I sound distant or something.. There was a lot I felt like writing but the post would get way too lengthy then, so I have merely mentioned only the headers of what I believe

Reply

You're right: i did use Luke 3:22 to back Matthew 3:16 up, but not in the way you're saying. I quoted both because of how they both reference the Spirit: one says "Holy Spirit" the other says "the Spirit of God."—my intention here was to prove that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, not to prove God's omnipresence. The verses following those two were to prove God's omnipresence; i just had to first prove that the Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit.


I agree that it would be impossible for God to do so if He were not omnipresent. I see that John 14:23 can only be taken in its literal form, and i agree that the part "make our home with them" can be considered in two senses: use their home as home, or use their bodies as home. And yes, it makes perfect sense to use John's letters to clarify what is written in the Gospel of John.


Although i didn't directly mention the Father itself or the Father's abilities in my previous post (nor did the context of the quote to your post mention the Father but God alone), i agree, the Holy Spirit is not the Father and vice versa (whether by purpose or other means), but the Spirit, as indicated in many areas of the New Testament, is the Holy Spirit, which in turn makes God omnipresent. I can understand why you believe the Father isn't omnipresent, as "the Father" in and of itself—that is, when left alone—is just a concept, a name, a title attributed to God because of how God works and acts and because believers in Jesus Christ are adopted by God. The purpose for the Father is different than the Holy Spirit's purpose, that is why the Father itself does not require to be omnipresent; but lack of requirement doesn't mean lack of something.

Also, i have checked out Acts 2:2–4, and If i study the context of your statement, you're saying that the Father and the Holy Spirit have different purposes, which as i have mentioned agree, but that doesn't contradict anything i believe in.


My intention in my previous post was not to correct but to provide insight. However, i am uncertain of what you declare as the Creation and what it has to do with the Holy Spirit or omnipresence or whatever else we've been discussing. If you could, please clarify, as the only reference i can think of that deals with the Spirit of God and creation is when God's Spirit was hovering over the waters.

Also, if we go a few verses back from 1 Cor. 6:19 till we reach verse 11, it shows that Paul, the author of 1 Corinthians, agrees that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

Reply

Velma, that is a spiritually healthy and fulfilling way to live. Thank you for your post.

Kansuke, I appreciate your attempt to make peace and I will try to continue this discussion without pushing it into a scene of contention but try to keep, or re-establish it as a place of amicable discussion. I liked the plainness of your diagram and how well it illustrated your belief but now I am going to have to explain that my belief is not the same. Please do not take it amiss.

Truefusion, I am not contesting your beliefs, I am trying to explain mine. I appear to have less than sufficiently explained certain aspects of that belief and inadvertently caused some confusion, for which I apologize. You also surprised me by bringing up the main supporting passage for a lynchpin aspect of that belief. Allow me to begin again.

1) God does not lie; though the neccesary translation process can cause confusion He does not intentionally give a false impression.

Therefore when the scriptures repeatedly say the same thing I have to think that that principle is true to the original understanding. So when Christ refers to God as his father, repeatedly, and not as another aspect of himself, I glean a distinct priciple that God, the Father and Christ, his Son are two different beings. Christ is a being with a body, born of his mother... where did the stuff that made him immortal enough to live again come from? We've been told that - God, his Father. A spirit does not have DNA as it lacks the physical matter to carry genes, so God is a physical being. I know this seems a weird leap to you, please be patient. Let's run this back a little and look from another angle, one already visited, the baptism of Christ.

I was trying to be clear, I apologize for not being clear enough. In that moment when they speak of these three personages they are explicitly described separately, as separate beings. If the Spirit of God were God then to project his voice from the heavens instead of from the presence which is already there would be a deception. The only possibility left to conclude, to my God granted reasoning capabilities, is that God and the Spirit of God are two different beings.

2) (to recap the point) God is omnipotent, but respects our right to make, and live with, our own choices. God is omniprescient and knows every aspect of what is going on in this world and in our hearts, the ultimate sympathetic ear. But as a being with a physical body God is not omnipresent, he has the angels, a spirit corps as it were, to handle the subtle aplication of his deific power for this earth.

This is my beleif, I understand if you don't reason or feel the same way.

A last note about the word 'presence'. It has at least two meanings or applications in the english language. The most straightforward one is the literal physically standing in the same room, or in close proximity to another person. The other usage of presence refers to the charismatic force or the under-the-skin knowledge of their being there that is felt without their being seen. Also sometimes used to refer to a persons influence on another or on events that is felt or percieved in their absence, but that is a more modern and poetic use.

Times up- gotta run.

Reply

-I believe God gave us the Bible perfect, and that He'll preserve it perfect until the end of time.
-I believe that religions and beliefs don't lead to God, but salvation comes through Jesus Christ alone.
-I believe all God's commandments are fulfilled by a self-sacrificing love for Him and other people, because it doesn't harm other people.
-I believe saving faith is through God's grace alone and works come only as a by-product of that faith. We can never be good enough to deserve the righteousness that comes through trust in Christ's payment on the cross alone.
-I believe I'm a jerk. I believe the rest of humanity is a bunch of jerks. I believe the lot of us jerks can only be justified through what Jesus did for us, and can only be changed by God's goodness, not ours.
-I believe that because we're all jerks, we have no right to punish others, but should show mercy. If we don't forgive others, God won't forgive us. I believe in being nice to my fellow jerks because I'm a jerk myself.
-I believe only God is good. The Bible records the best men in history as having messed up, sometimes big-time, to show that we should trust God alone.
-I believe we need to seek God out of sincerity from our hearts. I believe our relationship needs to be based out of the heart, and that means not hiding from the issues or being religious. God doesn't mind us questioning Him but expects us to reach a decision sooner or later whether to trust Him for all eternity.
-I believe Jesus died for my sins, rose again the 3rd day, and that by simply asking Him to save me based on His payment for me, I can have eternal life. However, I have to commit to following Him and give Him my life so that He can change me to become more like Him.
-I believe religious people, by and large, are all pretty bad. I think even the best of denominations have their share of phonies slinking around. I think the majority of so-called Christians, aren't.
-I believe Jesus didn't come to make a religion, but a bunch of people who follow God from their hearts individually, and not just because their herd leaders tell them to.
-I believe "church" is not a building or an institution, but just wherever 2 or more believers are gathered together. It's just Christians getting together to praise and follow God with all their hearts.
-I believe I shouldn't worry about anything but should realize God is taking care of me, and that through Jesus I already have everything in the universe that matters.
-I believe the real Christians down through the centuries were those that obeyed Jesus' commandments of loving their enemies and being peaceful. Those who committed horrors like the Inquisition or Salem Witch Trials were the continuers not of Jesus, but of those who persecuted Him; the Pharisees and the Romans.
-I believe God gave all of us free will to choose or reject Him. God doesn't want a bunch of puppets running around, because then we couldn't love Him (sorry Pinochio).
-I believe God is a gentleman who lets us choose life or death, but tries to persuade each of us to come to Him. He's not setting any of us up to fall because He doesn't want any of us to perish, but for all to come to repentance.
-I believe a good rule of thumb is "Your right to throw a punch stops where the other person's nose begins." I disagree with abortion, homosexual marriage, and slavery because the right desired is the right to infringe upon the rights of others.
-I believe in returning good to my enemies and overcoming good with evil. Even if I don't like them or their actions, I am still accountable to God for my own.
-I believe in obeying authorities even if they're not right, so long as to do so doesn't go against the Bible, simply because God has put them in authority, and to resist is to resist God. And I should fight evil by returning good, that's God's will.

Reply

Joshua, thank you for your post. That is quite a list, much of which summarizes the ideals of christianity.


I wish this weren't true, but I have met too many people who call themselves christians who, wielding a little power throw aside all ethics to get ahead. And the interesting social phenomenon where the longer a church is in an area the more likely the members are to get clickish(sp?) where they associate with only their circle and heaven help the newcomer, even one to the same congregation. Kinda like watching pirahna.

Reply