@elrohir: Good to hear. Lol, there's a first time for everything, isn't there?

@insaneinnovations: The way I see it, drivers are a pain for every operating system. Creating a driver isn't something people like to do at a tea party; low-level programming in general fits into the maybe-another-day category. The thing is that corporations such as Microsoft and the whole Macintosh series have support from vendors by default because 1) they're the default user operating systems as of present day 2) we have intercorporate support 3) it makes good business to have ready-made drivers for the mass of peoples that do not know how to operate computers efficiently. Linux however... a good number of things have to be hacked up. We have had only one driver for an entire hardware trademark family at times, and trial-and-error has solved a good number of the problems. It's not a pretty sight, but given our current context, it's the best case in a disadvantaged situation.

@dastrophy: Packages out-of-the-box... I suggest you look up Sabayon. Back in May they were considering placing a major programming effort into that idea. I don't know if they've tried it out yet, but it was in the blogs.

Also, I think it's less of linux has to be accepted into the market and more of the market has to accept linux. Linux changes for the users - NOT for the corporations that want to maximize profit out of it. Sure, some of them are heavy users. However, they do not form the contributing majority.

 

 

 

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You can take any distrobution - they're going to end up running the same applications and such - they're built from the same original kernel, though there are tweaks here and there that will force you to recompile sometimes.

The only people that need to use old applications are those on mainframes. You don't need backwards compatibility for the most part as new versions of most Linux applications are always coming out. You just need to download the latest package. I've never had a problem with Linux in terms of recompiling when I've used it, especially with the Debian based distros which just require you to download a package - no recompiling or compiling required. Plus, there's an easy to use interface provided caled Synaptec if you are physically incapable of reading a manual.

As I've said, if you use the Debian based distrobutions, you just need to click on the package you want from Synaptec and it will automatically install. Even without the GUI it doesn't take a brain to install something like the gimp. Just run in the command line:

That's in the manual, and help file, which people apparantly are incapable of reading. Plus the proper code would be listed on the software's website. You can remove them easily as well.
Even if you don't use the debian based distrobutions you have the Red Hat distrobutions, and those have RPMs which are also point and click install.

As for hardware Ubuntu at least automatically configures it without problems. Slackware uses hotplug to automatically detect and install most hardware. For other distrobutions it's as easy as reading the manual, which won't be hard to do unless your illiterate, and in that case you probably wouldn't be using a computer anyway. I've also tried to configure hardware using Linux. After reading the proper ma
nual pages I have found only two types of hardware are a royal pain to install u
sing Linux:
1. 16:9 Widescreen Monitors (They work, just not in 16:9 if your distro doesn't auto-configure).
2. Wireless network adapters. I swear you need to be an IT expert to figure out how to configure those things.
Other than that sound is as easy as running alsaconf, graphics is as easy as running Xconfig or Xsetup, and networks are configured at the setup. Things like more memory are unneeded of configuration by the OS. Drives are automatically recognized when checking for drives to mount. Et cetera.

I believe there are three real reasons why Linux isn't going to gain much into the market:
1. It is obscure to the general population, who only know of "PCs" and "Macs", though it's like a comparision between "People" and "Caucasions" - They're the same thing hardware-wise.
2. The general population has been scared into not installing Linux by Microsoft's scare and FUD tactics.
3. Reading manuals is an apparent venial sin, and so the consumer will not install Linux because they don't want to read on how to use a computer, even though not reading that Toaster manual when trying to repair a problem ended up costing him more at a repair shop than if he just read the troubleshooting section.

 

 

 

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Some major companies still don't develop for the Linux platform too which can be a pain when your looking for the software you used on Windows. Configuring can be a pain too (especially anything network related).

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If I may have the liberty of reminding you people of the following:

1) Sudo, su and ls -l functions in Linux. Normally I can understand privileges and pids BUT, when I have to undertake various commands to force the kernel to recognize and verify a file, thats a problem. Whats the purpose of even giving Linux a gui? Why are there no instructions to automate this process? Where is the configurability? I should be able to double click on an icon and the kernel carries out those commands FOR me. Correct me if I am wrong but, the kernel is to work for the user not the user for the kernel. You turn a wrench to tighten a bolt the wrench does not turn you. Consider the tripwire analogy. An IDS program calculates and stores hashes of files with the intention of comparing them later on. The user does not manually calculate said hashes, the software does!


2) Proprietary drivers and general incompatibility. Case in point would be Vmware and many distros. When organized groups of coders celebrate, the least an end user could expect is a stable product. Why are there still experimental (see restricted) versions of Vmware drivers? Good luck compiling those, I had to repeat the process 10 times over.


3) Kernels between distros are similar to a varying degree. The purpose of compatibility script seems to have been forgotten. There is no standard! A kernel for one distro is different than another.


4) As generally seen, listed software does not include all installable software!


5) Root kits are a cross platform hazard! A rooted remote box is even better. VM with dependent snapshots is a different story all together.


6) Man in the middle attack > SSH connection. TLS via SOCKS4a on the other hand.. Even better try generating and using a SSH v2 key pair thats 4096 bits or greater. Slow is an understatement. A remote box is not going to protect you either.


7) Virtualization via Xen is vulnerable to hyper vector injection.


8) Try making application level firewall rules, good luck using iptables heh :p Maybe apparmor can save you, maybe not. Hell, Zonealarm program control vs apparmor, you be the judge.


9) Where is the WPA compatibility? Even if natively using it in Windows have another encryption protocol (NOT SSL) ready. Enough sniffed packets = full key. Then the cracking begins.


10) DRM, a pain in the ass for all kernels.


11) Try using OpenGL to substitute direcx 9 and later. Even better, try using a direct emulator. Psychedelic colors and textures man! Wwwooooo.


12) Vmware, tor, winice are examples of low level programming because they are on Windows? Take a course in a variety of programming languages before you make such judgments.

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Ah, Mr. Anonymous Guest, due to your virile nature and your amazing clerical ability to ressurect the dead, we meet again.

1) a - because guis are pretty. don't hate on the pretty.
b - instructions to automate this process? Yo, try messing with the live cds - I think that's the closest to get to that. The configurability is in the bash and perl programs that allow you to write scripts so you can make the automation any way you want.
c - it started as MADE by developers FOR developers. So, yes I will claim that the user is for the kernel. For every bug reported about the kernel, it becomes better. You cannot stop the kernel. The kernel will live on. In all seriousness here, The kernel's for the system. If the user wants to mess with the kernel - something which it should be able to understand thoroughly anyway, then that's the user's own business.

2)Thank god for bochs, right? It is a sad state, to be honest.

3)Problem with that argument is that a lot of distros. come with multiple kernels, so the similarities start to set in. some even come with *shudder* kernels that are completely configurable. Oh what's this? Gentoo?

4)I dare anyone (this includes RMS, Torvalds, Tux and the last PDP-7 user) to try and list at any given one moment every possible installable package at any one time. Gonna go with not possible. To be pragmatic however, that's a problem fixable by a quick email to the distro lords with "PLEEEASE give me a list of packages on your site!!!!" Get enough people to email and it'll be a standard. To this end I suggest giving free pizza to all root's you know as bribery.

5)An even better story is the how we still trust VM to do stuff securely at this end.

6) Get this man some distcc. Stat.

7)Again, why we DON'T use Xen.

8)Ok, very good point. But I don't mess with iptables anyway, so I'll try not to get whacked on the head here.

9)In wpa_supplicant. (jk...) Yes, we've all seen aircrack-ng demos cracking wireless in 5 min. (or should immediately google and see them. Do it. NOW.)
Can't be helped there. Unless almighty Anonymous Guest is a master of cryptography, in which case I suggest it starts dev'ing.

10) this topic is to be avoided at all costs so that Sony*'s HQ won't be burned down.
*- Sony really meaning any DRM-using company.

11) Again, hating the pretty. Stop doing that! You're right there. But I blame the people who program in direct x anyway. Such a bad API...

12) Umm, I've programmed in x86 and Z80 assembly and had a good run in C (low middle ages anyone?) - so I'll assume you're joking with the examples.

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I have finally switched to Ubuntu 7.10... And I love it...

Everything I need to do, I can do, sometimes even quicker than I did in Wintendo... GUI is rather nice, compiz runs fast as hell, rotating the cube, while 4 movies run on 4 desktops... Ubuntu even wants to run my monitor in it's native resolution 1440x900, where Wintendo said I need a new GFX card, because this one can't display that resolution... Yeah, right....

Network runs fine, without any configurations (I use ADSL)... I even configured iptables to some extent (not that I need it )... Successfully installed SSH... Installed several more applications... Ubuntu sees my webcam... The only thing I have to configure some more is my TV card (that I don't use so often)...

So... For me... Linux doesn't fail as a desktop system, it excells greatly... I love it...

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Linux doesn't fail as an operating system. It's simply due to the fact that it doesn't draw the attention nor the desire of the consumer mass.

It STILL has the stigma that geeks use it and might not exactly be "user-friendly..." and what I mean by this:

I just recently jumped into Ubuntu 7.10 and I suppose that it's pretty darn good. Most devices were detected flawlessly and most everything worked without a pinch. Now, take into account your typical, "want-this-to-work-out-of-box" person. Let's say that a certain device wasn't clicking with the OS. In Windows, most of the time you can rely on Windows Update to provide you with the correct driver. (It's not perfect, so this doesn't always happen.) In Linux, if it isn't detected right off the back after repository updates and whatnot, you have to jump through major hoops, code, and change system files to get something to work. I know this for a fact because I installed Ubuntu 7.10 onto my tablet PC and the stylus would not work correctly. I had to go online, swim and wade through tons of forums to look for possible answers, then finally found a solution that worked, involving adding lines of code to a file that of course, you would have to have existing knowledge of SUDO (or access to root) to edit. It really wasn't a hard thing to do, but for any other Joe Schmoe out there that has NO clue what to do in the first place (and of course, he'll most likely be computer-illiterate or maybe not comfortable), it would make for a rather frustrating experience.

That's one thing. I would post more but I have to go to work now.

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Make sure to check out MythTV to get into scheduling recodings and all other sorts of cool stuff. Just look for the package in Synaptic or Adept.



This is actually a fault with the manufacturer of the tablet. They make the stylus/touchscreen system appear as a USB mouse (usually) and write special drivers, run on Windows, to interpret this mouse. Of course, with Ubuntu, it appears as a mouse and it treats it as such. As there are no specialist drivers already installed, and manufacturers refuse to release them, there is not a lot anyone can do. This is why I picked an HP printer - open source, fully supported, Linux drivers!

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Just to let you know, I have just installed Ubuntu 7.10 on my HP Pavilion zd8000, which I have been reluctant to do BECAUSE of what I noted earlier about unsupported devices/hardware.

And frankly, this is very frustrating.

As I was saying before, Linux isn't always user-friendly... or should I say, hardware-friendly. Case-in-point: on install, propriatory drivers for my ATI Radeon Mobility X600 video card, my modem card, and my network card do not work. I could care less about the modem and I really shoudn't worry about my video card, but the only reason why I have Internet is because I am using my Ethernet cord coming from the living room (where my router is to give the entire house wireless access) that was meant for my Xbox 360 to connect this computer to the world, since Ubuntu 7.10 doesn't want to allow my network card's firmware to be installed. (It gives me an error stating that bcm44-fwcutter isn't installed.) On trying to install proprietary drivers for my video card, it states that some dependencies are broken, but when I go into Synaptics Package Manager to repair packages, it says that everything's fine and dandy.

Ironically enough, the modem driver was the only driver that I could install flawlessly... the one device of the three that I could live without.

I'm also using a Logitech MX3200 Laser Wireless Keyboard and Mouse combo. Of course, I'm having problems with it. Off the bat, the keyboard works, but the mouse is unresponsive. Upon removing the USB receiver and then putting it back in, the keyboard now fails to work but the mouse works... to the extent that it doesn't respond to any input every few seconds for a second. (Slightly annoying.) After Googling for a possible solution, I've edited the crap out of xconf.org and I'm surprised that I can still boot into Ubuntu with no problems. Of course, no progress: it's either or with the keyboard and mouse.

I'm in the process of downloading a 203MB upgrade at the moment, so hopefully this fixes things. If not, this post/experience is an argument against being user-friendly (as in the convenience of having things "just work").

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Yay Ubuntu crowd.

STOP.
There's a saying somewhere on the interblag that the linux is user-friendly, just not idiot-friendly. And it's a very good saying.

Linux IS hardware friendly. Really. The stuff it is stable with works beautifully. It just isn't proprietary friendly.
It's a variant of the user-friendly rule, with those who develop proprietary drivers on an open system being idiots.

Frankly, I'm not happy with the way GPU-video card systems are right now. I can't even access the thing directly. ATI's finally getting open source~ish stuffs around but it's going to take a while. Nouveau (nvidia reverse-engineering) is still in 2D-land. It'll take a while to get out of this.

But to get back to the spirit of this topic, if Linux fails in anyway as a desktop system, it's because hardware vendors epic fail their way into oblivion. While OSes like Windows and Macintosh had deals with video card manufacturers for many years Linux started with nothing but a black-and-white screen. History matters. A lot. The console is still the most flexible configuration system on Linux for a good reason - it's really fast and simple. Desktop development has always been seen as a nod towards 'we need more of the pretty' by people like me - and there are a lot of us. If the darn drivers had been open from the start, our graphics developers wouldn't have to waste time trying to figure out how to reverse engineer/hack together/alter opcodes for similar architectures just to get pixels looking right. It's going to take time, but eventually we'll get the open drivers we need, some way or another. This might be 4 or 5 years from now. But I'm sure by then, people will go around on the internet and laugh when they see what we were discussing, because frankly on openness, Linux wins. By a lot. It'll have really amazing desktops by the end of it all.

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