Janissary it seems you have two terms confused.
There is a difference between perfection (Utopia) and control.

The system you propose where you have an elitist government that tries to avoid corruption and governs its people has nothing to do with perfection. Why? No one would be truly happy. Sure you could use manipulation to brainwash others into believing that they are content but true happiness comes from the inside. What you establish is power and consistency.

Power and consistency are great, everyone would want the eternal stability of a highly educated group that makes all the important decisions. BUT, in the end what's the point? If people lose touch of what they want and become machines in what is pre-modelled for them as a perfect society, then what part of this Utopia retains its humanity?

My opinion is this is just a compilation of all the totalitarian warning novels out there like 1984 and Brave New World.
Here's the thing about perfect societies, the word perfection is defined by someone or some group, now this group is after all, only a group.
No matter how hard you try there will always be insurgence here and low approval rates of the government. What governments all over the world have now is better than this in terms of Utopia and its pursuit because at least in our sane world, we have opportunity and voice.

Idk, maybe I'm missing something but this is more of a: Way to Control Everyone Successfully, rather than Perfect Country kind of thing.

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I really cant understand you here. "Special treatment for special person" thingy is always here. Smart kids recieve schoolarship, talented kids drafted in soccer teams. Handicap people recieve parking lots. Why are you getting angry for my plan to educate smart/talented people differently?

By the way... in my view, you cant be a good governor if you have family tides. Because sooner or later your family is going to ask for special treament, will want from their relative in power to bend rules for his/her family. A time would come, the good of family can override the good of people.
That reasoning is one of my starting point. So I thought to myself, governor should be free of these chains. Therefore, I chose abondon kids to be governor.

Do a parent have right to get angry if their child cannot enter NBA because he/she lacks the requirements?


Well, I believe differently. The environment is more important than DNA for developing personality. And being a leader of course a good part of being a ruler but not the most important one. Hitler was a good leader but a bad governor. Being a leader can get you to chair. But as you know in my idea, you dont need to convince anyone to that you are a good ruler.
This is my other reasoning. Current political leaders are obligated to stay in good grace of both public and other power centers that brings the leader to there. So sometimes leaders act populist, take actions which bring votes in short terms but brings bad things in long term or say "yes" to their financial supportes despite the good of people. By drafting kids into the governor class, you are freeing a ruler of these chains.


I apologize for my grammer but please remember Im debating in a foreign language.


I didnt know that. But that's better, so science can tell bad apples. The chances of chosing wrong kid is reduced.


You may be right. But we are being brainwashed everyday. While we are being raised, definition of being a boy and a girl are printing in us. We buy our daughters barbies, toy make ups, ovens while buying our sons guns and cowboy hats. We teach them things like "boys dont cry" Another brainwashing is commercials, every product is loaded with a false identity. They are trying to make you believe if you dont buy those shoes, you dont belong in shoes' made-up social class. And in school, in history lessons you are brainwashed to love your country. You are American, in your mind USA is the best place on Earth. Im a Turk, in my mind Turkey is the best place in Earth. Because we're brainwashed. You were raised by American heroic tales, I were raised by Turkish heroic tales.

By the way, I admit these examples dont show brainwashing is good but I say it can be acceptable. Is this make me evil, maybe... maybe not.

My reasoning for a completly different education for governor is:
a regular human is full of flaws to be ruler so i thought if some nations are succeed to breed soldier class (or insanly self-controled monks) why we cant train a governer class.


I didnt that say there're saints every :) I admited how it would be difficult to give this idea a start then I told the reasons. I agreed with you on that one but you are saying you are disagree?!

By the way, Im taking back my word "Democracy isn't about freedom but safety" because I noticed those are same thing. Safety of knowing noone can take your property, safety of knowing noone can put you on jail etc.

But please compare the decision making progress of a dictator and a parliament? Which one is faster? Caution, I dont say better here but saying faster.
Now compare the decision speed of 1 person to 100 people to 1000 people to 10000. Caution, I dont say we should be ruled by one man, that would be a gamble.

Masses arent good for giving the best decision, dont you agree? So then democary is about sacrifing effiency for security.

By the way, most of the voters dont give a damn about politics but just want to live their life. And you can find many voters who voted for stupid reasons, reasons behind politics. Caution, I dont say we should give up democary. As I said before, its the most secure goverment.

What Im saying is if we manage to get this idea in motion. I believe it would be better than any other goverment. But as I said before Im full awere how difficult it's to get started. So that's why the topic is "utopia"

Thank you for reading, and it's Ok. You dont need to like me. This thread helped me, I found holes and fixed it (at least in my eye :)

By the way, I've discused this idea with someother people too. So far only 2 people agreed with me. (One of them is imagining about resurrecting Ataturk and giving him absolute power, other one is wishing a more evoled and civilized alien ruler for humans) Most strong arguments against me adriantc's "what if these people begin to think themself better than society" and one of my friend's "How can define good education They will be flawed as their teacher"

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Which, is descrimination, and unconstitutional. What if a certain kid's parent flips out over that kind of thing, that their child wasn't chosen for the "special education"?



Yes. You were either born a leader or a follower. You can train a follower to become a leader all you want, but that doesn't make them a leader. That makes them a follower of the leader's ways.

You, sir, have crappy grammar. And, no, that is not true. People who were destined to be criminals have been scientifically proven to have a difference in their grey matter in their brains. And brain washing is just cruel. The people of the society aren't really people if they can't think freely. And it doesn't matter if you DO devide the power among hundreds of people if they all were brain washed to think the same way. What are you smoking?



Yes, but that's in your opinion, which from this standpoint seems corrupted. And there aren't any saints that are currently alive, and it would take hundreds if not thousands of years, because there will always be people who want to rebel. And what? Democracy isn't about freedom?! And no, it does not make it slow, it does not hamper the decision process. Democracy is about what the people want. And what the people want is best. Sure the people screw up sometimes, but have you noticed that democratic countries' constitiutions last alot longer? I live in America, and our's is the oldest functioning constitution.

You sir, have no idea what you are talking about. So, I hate to be unfriendly (well okay that's a lie) but I suggest you read up on the facts first.

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I think you misunderstood me completly on that subject. This idea of mine wont change how orphans are treated. You are just giving special education to special people.


You meant you cant train yourself to be a leader, you born leader kinda thing?


People dont born good or bad. Their environment and experinces make them. A 10 years old child can only be bad if he/she experinced some bad, tramatic events. Thats why you're testing their mental health. By the way, Im repeating myself... Yes, humans are complex, yes we cant see right through them. But you are dividing power among hundreds of people who are raised in a controled environment.

In my opinion... if this idea is wanted to set in motion, the biggest problem would be finding good teachers. The people who starts the revolution should be saints becasue their "good" will be taught on those children. This is difficult but not impossible.

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By the way, as I said in "democracy perfect?" topic. Democracy is not about freedom, it's about safety. Demoracracy hampers the decision progres thus making it slow and sometimes resulting in lousy decisions but in return it gives safety from ambition of humans becasue the power is been dividing among thousands.

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Actually, no, but that's not what he's saying. Us Americans are ruled under the ideals that the only person who rules the people, are the people.

What are you going to do with them? You can't just abandon them.



But then they're not leaders. And you might teach them the ways, teach them to be good, but you can't always weed out the bad people. Someone who comes across as a good person can turn out to be an advocate of the devil.

And I suggest you get familiar with quote tags. You're going to need them.

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