beeseven
Nov 26 2005, 06:32 PM
| | http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/...y-top-headlines
A teacher was fired from her job at a Catholic school for becoming pregnant out of wedlock. The school bans premarital sex because it's one of the values of Catholicism, so they fired the teacher for being a bad role model. She says that it's discrimination against women because it's much harder to prove if a male teacher had premarital sex, so she's suing.
A poll on the site shows that about 51% think she shouldn't have been fired, 45% say it was the right thing, and 4% aren't sure. Personally I'm with the 51%, but I've never liked a lot of the Catholic teachings. |
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iwuvcookies
Nov 26 2005, 07:44 PM
I'm in the middle. I can't really decide what I want to say. A part of me wants to say she should be kicked out because she as a women and Catholic had duties to fulfil through her religion. Then there's that thing that says male teachers having premarital sex and others not knowing. She sort of knew it was against the school rules to get pregnant out of wedlock. OH I don't know. I'm the undecided percent.
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Mezzano
Nov 26 2005, 09:30 PM
its a difficult situation. Not sure what my personal opinion yet is on the mater but, i do know one thing, they dont have the right to know if it was pre marital sex or not that she commited. It is her right in every way for personal information to be personal. Others simply do not have to know... how it got out, i do not know... but the alternative would have been that nobodyt had to know about it, and it would not be effecting the kids in any way if they did not know, or thought it was not pre marital...
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FLaKes
Nov 26 2005, 10:00 PM
Im on the undecided part too. If she decided to work there she must have accepted something that said that she was so catholic that she want going to have premarital sex, and if its a school where many kids are going to see her pregnant I think she is definetely a bad role model, but what iwuvcookies says is true, so thats why Im also undecided.
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s243a
Nov 26 2005, 10:12 PM
I think men could get caught to, but the woman could have other options like, multiple levels of birth control. I.e. combine, condom, pill, diaphragm, spermicidal foam and morning after pill. And if all else fails I suppose abortion but that is a really non catholic thing to do. The issue is how do we balance the rights of an employee with religions freedoms. I think in this case perhaps religious freedoms should perhaps take a back seat because education is such a fundamental role to the functioning of society and should not be controlled by the biases and dogma inherent in organized religion.
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kasm
Nov 27 2005, 04:28 AM
QUOTE(beeseven @ Nov 27 2005, 05:32 AM) http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/...y-top-headlinesA teacher was fired from her job at a Catholic school for becoming pregnant out of wedlock. The school bans premarital sex because it's one of the values of Catholicism, so they fired the teacher for being a bad role model. She says that it's discrimination against women because it's much harder to prove if a male teacher had premarital sex, so she's suing. .. 1- She is working for a Catholic institution and should follow their teachings. 2- It is breach for a contract since she "required to convey the teachings of the Catholic faith by his or her words and actions." 3- It is breach of belonging membership to the organisation. Exactly as the situation when a woman applying to be member in men club or a man applied to be member in women club or organisation. 4- Every job has a job description and duties and obligation. Every appointment has a selection criteria and points. 5- It is not discrimination since the school authorities is ready to show the door as well for a male teacher "if they knew that he had impregnated a women out of wedlock" 6- It is not of matter of forgiving since the trace of matter is continuing. It is not a matter of forgiving. Forgiving for a single event without trace for evever. Forgiving to who steal something and this something in his possesion is invalid forgiven. Because after microsecond from the forgiven the sin or the assult still active since the stolen thing is not returned. The same if some one is forgiven for cheating and the same behaviour is continuing after that, the forgiven was given is nonsense. 7- It is not matter of religions freedoms. She has the right to belief or act as she likes but not in matter affect the new generation. It is similar to the sex ofender case when it is not allowed the sex ofender to work in school or kingarten even after they have received punshiment. 8- It is not a personal or private matter because this matter can not be private i.e the others don't know about it and effecting the kids. Many another matter can be private.
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Saint_Michael
Nov 27 2005, 04:48 AM
well of course the catholics need to get the stick out their butts and get with the times its not 300 ad here, thats why I hate religions in general its either their way or you get executed for not doing it, whatever she has the right ti sue and I hope she wins bad enough catholic priest get away for assault children (most case are legit) and it would be impossible to know if a guy get freaky unless they get a daily medical check up to see if he did or not. unlike kasm pointing out the rules for islam, people have the choice to do what the hell they want religiously or govemment, but its idiots like the catholics and the extremists that make all the problems for people to crack down, i want to be alive when the exsistance of God is proven wrong so i can laugh at everyone and tell them what fools they are.
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Spectre
Nov 27 2005, 05:10 AM
QUOTE well of course the catholics need to get the stick out their butts and get with the times its not 300 ad here, thats why I hate religions in general its either their way or you get executed for not doing it... but its idiots like the catholics... Saint_Michael, settle down. I'm not a religious person either, but I don't hate all religions. I can respect that some people may wish to believe in or worship certain figures or ideas which I do not agree with. I'm sure many people would take great offense to your words. Remember, you are a moderator and your job is to keep the peace and guide the forum's users. Anyway, I stand sort of in the middle on this particular issue. If the teacher had not agreed or obide by the rules of the school and the religion under which it teaches, then I would certainly support her choice to take legal action against the school - however, as she apparently did agree to provide a religious role model to students and keep to the ideas and morals which that religion supports, I don't think she is in any position to try and sue them. It is indeed harder to prove that a male has engaged in pre-marital sexual activity, but I don't think it's so much that she participated in an act the school views with scorn that is the problem - I think it's that she is now pregnant, basically 'flaunting' it to her students and showing disregard for the laws of their religion in front of them that is more the issue.
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AeroBlack
Nov 27 2005, 05:22 AM
That is oh so messed up.. She gets fired because she wanted to get laid...I don;t understand Catholics, but there is nothing we can do about it now at this point in time. Why can't except the fact, that people like to have some sex. Its normal and humain..
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Spectre
Nov 27 2005, 05:33 AM
Of course it is. But she still stepped outside of her legally binding agreement and terms of employment at the school. Although I don't think it makes any sense having the rule in the first place, that's just what her religion insists on enforcing, and it's not like she 'accidently' broke her agreement. Or rather, the religion under which the school follows. Sorry for the double post (most likely not her religion).
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Spectre
Nov 28 2005, 12:37 PM
This is getting quite ridiculous. People seem to be mixing up a violation of workplace requirements with the removal of human rights, which is ludicruous. I don't want to stir up any small flame wars, but s243a, you are incorrect. I can understand that people would want to take sides with the woman who lost her job in this case, but without knowing all the information surrounding it, I think she may be in the wrong. A contract - which can be any recording of agreement to a set of terms and conditions - is legally binding, and the person who signs their name to the contract is going to be held accountable for any violations of those terms. With the exception of anything explicitly unlawful, there is no restriction as to what a contract can contain, and it is up to the person to thoroughly read and check a contract before signing their name to it - because they will be bound by every single word contained therein. Although I am no expert in law, it is my understanding that there are laws surrounding employment that prevent employers from discrimating against potential employees for certain things - pregnancy or having children being one of them (this, of course, could vary from country to country, but I would assume it is consistant at least throughout Western society). However, that has absolutely nothing to do with this case. The woman is not being fired because she fell pregnant - but rather because she did so outside of marriage, something that Catholicism in general looks down upon. And whilst she is perfectly free to do that, one of the conditions of employment at the school is that teachers are "required to convey the teachings of the Catholic faith" and act as a "role model" for the students. Therefore, I would think that, although I personally disagree with the school, the woman is in fact the one in the wrong. I am not nor have I ever been a Catholic, and I strongly oppose some of their principles and beliefs. I just want to make that clear, so you don't think my opinion is biased based on my beliefs. I do sympathize with the woman, and think it is ridiculous to have such rules in the first place - but as they were clearly there before she was, and she agreed to take up her position in the school and demonstrate the beliefs of their religion to the students under her anyway, she has little choice but to accept it and seek employment elsewhere. I do not think this case would hold up in court.
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kasm
Nov 28 2005, 03:25 AM
1. QUOTE(s243a @ Nov 28 2005, 06:10 AM) So if a religion taught all blacks were evil would it be right for a member of that religion to fire someone after discovering the employ was born black but got hired by changing there appearance though plastic surgery?
What fantasy assumption you gave?No religion on the earth consider "all blacks were evil". We speak now about what a particular religion preach and the responsibility to keep it in action. Please read my previous reply [which before your direct] that the matter is not religious one and the example I gave in public school for matters are not religious. 2. QUOTE(s243a @ Nov 28 2005, 06:10 AM) Just because something is in contract doesn’t mean it is leagal or right. Who said that?. Do you have any idea for the agreement or contract even the oral promises do? 3. QUOTE(s243a @ Nov 28 2005, 06:10 AM) There are rules for what agreements are allowed to be made between people and what questions you are allowed to ask during an interview.
For instance in a job interview you are not allowed to ask questions about race, age, religion, sex, sexual orientation, what political party you belong to etc. May be in the interview no questions direct about race, age, religion, sex, sexual orientation, what political party you belong to etc.BUT there is Job advertising shows the objective and culture of the ororganization the minimum condition to apply to that job , the reresponsibilitiesnd tasks etc and job description . Do you hear that big companies and cocorporationsike IBM or Microsoft have an anannouncedulture. What you say about the questions are given by your Congress members to confirms the judges candidates? 4. QUOTE(s243a @ Nov 28 2005, 06:10 AM) I refuse to base the laws of this country upon examples of oppressive religious laws and customs in others. This is not of Laws Making matter but applying what is already e.g. Contract Law. 5. QUOTE(s243a @ Nov 28 2005, 06:10 AM) So again I reiterate it all comes down to balancing the trade offs between religious freedoms and human rights. This is not rereligious freedoms matter. Nobody enforce her to choose her rereligion but she has been abide for what she agreed to. 6. QUOTE(s243a @ Nov 28 2005, 06:10 AM) The best criteria for balancing these goals is to ask the question, “How does the teacher being pregnant effect her ability to teach the subject matter?”. to a thought. Thus brainwashing is about conditioning people to not think She wasn't fired because her ability to teach. This exactly equivalent to the driver who loose his/her licenclicensehe/she drives faster than what allowed or drives in the opposite directdirectionedespitexperience in driving even if he/she is the champion in cars race. 7. QUOTE(s243a @ Nov 28 2005, 06:10 AM) The attempt to brainwash students is amoral and has no justification under the principle of religious freedom.
Speaking about brainwashing or relegireligiousom is elastic and not deterministic matter. I remind you how the media and authorities brainwashing US citizen about the necessnecessity for invading Iraq. to not think. s243a, please answer the following question in cultural and real maner from neutral prospective: Why there are Catholic Schools, Anglican Schools, Babtist Schools, Greek Schools, Islamic Schools and Jewish Schools?.
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s243a
Nov 27 2005, 07:10 PM
So if a religion taught all blacks were evil would it be right for a member of that religion to fire someone after discovering the employ was born black but got hired by changing there appearance though plastic surgery? Just because something is in contract doesn’t mean it is leagal or right. There are rules for what agreements are allowed to be made between people and what questions you are allowed to ask during an interview. For instance in a job interview you are not allowed to ask questions about race, age, religion, sex, sexual orientation, what political party you belong to etc. Perhaps in some countries such questions are allowed. However, I refuse to base the laws of this country upon examples of oppressive religious laws and customs in others. So again I reiterate it all comes down to balancing the trade offs between religious freedoms and human rights. The best criteria for balancing these goals is to ask the question, “How does the teacher being pregnant effect her ability to teach the subject matter?”. Now keep in mind that teaching and brainwashing are somewhat contrary. To teach implies a strengthening of critical thinking skills. That is when we teach we learn how to think. Well brainwashing is a programmed condition to a thought. Thus brainwashing is about conditioning people to not think. I will go further by saying that the extant the image the teacher portrays by her perceived social actions though hear say is not a valid justification to asses here performance in the duties of a teacher because the use of such criterion is a form of brainwashing. The attempt to brainwash students is amoral and has no justification under the principle of religious freedom.
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steven
Nov 27 2005, 04:02 PM
I would say that she should be fired because she has gone against the rules of Catholicism. To be pregnant while she is a Catholic in a Catholic School, is a direct violation of their sect. But, I think that she is right about men having premarital sex and there may be no indication. She should sue the Catholic people, if she has sufficient proofs.
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ongnoai
Nov 27 2005, 02:08 PM
QUOTE(Saint_Michael @ Nov 27 2005, 06:48 AM) unlike kasm pointing out the rules for islam, people have the choice to do what the hell they want religiously or govemment, but its idiots like the catholics and the extremists that make all the problems for people to crack down, i want to be alive when the exsistance of God is proven wrong so i can laugh at everyone and tell them what fools they are. Hey, Saint-Michael, seems to me the right time to stumble on the block and quote some Brit writer who said enigmatically "If God didn't exist, there would be no atheists..." Makes sense, right ?
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