Scientific Proof That God And The Day Of Judgement Both Exist
omarsdali
Nov 28 2007, 05:32 PM
I found this in a different forum in a different language so I translated it to share it with you guys:
QUOTE
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
القانون الأزلى الذى يحكم كل النظريات العلمية , و تتولد منه كل القوانين الفيزيائية فى كل العلوم , هو قانون بقاء الطاقة , والذى ينص على: " الطاقة لا تفنى ولا تستحدث من عدم , و انما تنتقل من صورة الى أخرى "
و مهما حاول العلماء من اثبات وجود ما يسمى الطاقة السالبة التى تتولد منها جسيمات الذرة , ووجود هذه الكتل السالبة فى بعد آخر , فهو لا يعد خرقا للقانون , و انما سيرا على نهجه من تحول من صورة لأخرى
ما يعنينا فى هذا القانون التالى : ان كانت الطاقة لا تفنى ولا تستحدث , من أين جاءت كل الطاقة الموجودة فى الكون الآن ؟
سؤال بسيط , يستحيل الاجابة عنه علميا الا باجابة واحدة :
لا بد من وجود قوة فوق القانون نفسه , قوة خالقة , قوة أوجدت الطاقة و المادة , ثم صنعت القانون الذى ينظم عمل الطاق , قوة تأتى آخر الزمان , عندما يحين الأوان , لتخرق القانون مرة أخرى , بل لتزيله تماما , و تفنى كل أشكال الطاقة و المادة التى أوجدتها أول مرة (" كما بدأكم تعودون") ,قوة تقيم نهاية للكون المعروف
هذه القوة باختصار و دون سفسطة علمية هي قدرة الله عز و جل , الذى تحدى الانسان أن يخلق جناح بعوضة (من لاشئ , من الفراغ الأزلى) .
يا أيها الملاحدة , يا من تدعون ادراك العلوم , وفهم العالم دون اله , كيف تفهمون ذلك , بالرغم من أنه لا يستقيم علميا , فضلا عن عدم استقامته منطقيا (فلكل تصميم لابد من وجود مصمم , فما بالك من الكون والخلق المعقدين , صدفة؟! اجمع صفائح الحديد و الزجاج و المطاط , رجهم معا لملايين السنين , لن تخرج منهم سيارة مرسيدس , فأي عته يتستر به أولئك المتفلسفون)
ختاما , فان باب المناقشة مفتوح , ومن رأى خللا فى هذا الاستدلال فليراجعنى
و السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
[hr=noshade][/hr] In the name of God most gracious most merciful
The universal law that governs all scientific theories, and upon which all the physics theories are based, is the law of conservation of energy that states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another. What concerns us in this law is the following: If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?
A simple question that can only be answered scientifically with one answer: There must be a force that’s above the law itself, a creating force, a force that brought energy and matter into existence, and then put in place the law that organizes the behavior of energy, a force that will come at the end of time, to break the law a second time, or rather to remove it completely, and destroy all forms of energy and matter it created at the beginning, a force that will bring the universe as we know it to an end. This force in short is the power of God, who dared the human beings to just create a mosquito’s wing ( from nothing ).
O atheists, you who claim to understand science, and understand the world without a god, how do you understand that ? Even though it doesn’t make sense scientifically or logically, for every simply design must have a designer, let alone the universe and the complex creatures, coincidence ? Gather the sheets of metal and the glass and the rubber, and mix them together for some millions of years, you won’t get out of them a Mercedes!!
That’s the end of the translation. What do you guys think about this ? Are there any flaws in this? Or does it make sense ? The door of debate is open…
I found this in a different forum in a different language so I translated it to share it with you guys: In the name of God most gracious most merciful
The universal law that governs all scientific theories, and upon which all the physics theories are based, is the law of conservation of energy that states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another. What concerns us in this law is the following: If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?
A simple question that can only be answered scientifically with one answer: There must be a force that’s above the law itself, a creating force, a force that brought energy and matter into existence, and then put in place the law that organizes the behavior of energy, a force that will come at the end of time, to break the law a second time, or rather to remove it completely, and destroy all forms of energy and matter it created at the beginning, a force that will bring the universe as we know it to an end. This force in short is the power of God, who dared the human beings to just create a mosquito’s wing ( from nothing ).
O atheists, you who claim to understand science, and understand the world without a god, how do you understand that ? Even though it doesn’t make sense scientifically or logically, for every simply design must have a designer, let alone the universe and the complex creatures, coincidence ? Gather the sheets of metal and the glass and the rubber, and mix them together for some millions of years, you won’t get out of them a Mercedes!!
That’s the end of the translation. What do you guys think about this ? Are there any flaws in this? Or does it make sense ? The door of debate is open… SOURCE OF ARABIC MATERIAL: http://www.ok-eg.com/show.php?main=1&id=286 TRANSLATED BY ME
Notice from truefusion:
All material that is not yours must be placed in QUOTE BBcodes.
Notice from omarsdali to truefusion:
I am putting the material that's not mine in QUOTES, but the english translation is mine.
the question of a higher power than myself or my knowledge has never been in question. i pretty much always believed in a higher power. i went to church for 18 years of my life, then i started questioning "god". then i became somewhat athiest to what i know and believe now. the question to me is, what IS this higher power?
i feel we are so ignorant as human beings that we will grasp on to anything that might make sense to us just to satisfy our own insecurites in where we come from. ignorance sometimes is that higher power to others. for example. i believe in psychic abilities 100% but just because someone does a trick to make it look like he has psychic abilites, does it mean he has psyhic abilities? some people believe yes, but that is their ignorance creating some higher power so what do we actually know about how god exists and the day of judgement exists without being fooled what a higher power really is? you can't and there is no scientific proof to back it up
to go one step further in your scientific proof that proves your theory, god is energy obviously since you and all others consider god to be a higher "power". so if the scientific proof is correct as you are assuming in this scenario, then god was created by yet another higher power. what power is higher than god? who knows. and until you can tell me what this power is and give it a name, then your theory has holes and is there has been no proof to it even assuming that the scientists' theories are fact.
on the flip side, you can say that god was the original energy and he controls all energy around us thus making it impossible to create or take away energy but then there would be no scientific theories now to base that on. who's to say there is one god anyway? what proof is there to that? there is none and what scientists have discovered wont support any factual basis to that.
now that we talked about "god", what is your basis in saying the judgement day exists? because if there is a god, there must be a judgement day because it was in a book that was written by someone other than god himself(sorry for the masculine version for all the women out there...just easier to say)? there isn't any scientific proof that supports that theory either.
fact is, all you mentione was a theory. this theory has been debated by our earliest ancestors why? because obiously we are not ment to know all the answers. with logic. i mean, logic is good for some things, but not to solve a deep rooted issue in all of us. that comes from your inner soul. your spirit. your intuition. you gut. what actually makes sense to you without logic. why do i say without logic? because people have tried to answer the question you are trying to solve to today with logic. both sides can have smart and logical answers to it. logic is also man made. comes from old school philosophy which is alot older that psychology.
so my point in the last paragraph is simply that because we don't have all the answers and probably never will in our lifetime here on earth, then we are ignorant and because of that, the answers don't lie in logic. the asnwers lie deep down inside ourselves. a feeling of knowledge we get inside....deep inside our own selves when we can relax and clear our mind, and be in touch and in tune with our inner soul and spirit and what all of us have inside us
to go one step further in your scientific proof that proves your theory,
first of all, this is not my proof nor my theory, I just translated the proof, although I do beleive that god exists.
QUOTE
god is energy obviously since you and all others consider god to be a higher "power". so if the scientific proof is correct as you are assuming in this scenario, then god was created by yet another higher power. what power is higher than god? who knows. and until you can tell me what this power is and give it a name, then your theory has holes and is there has been no proof to it even assuming that the scientists' theories are fact.
god is not energy he is the creator of the energy. He created the energy from nothing. and he is not the 'power', he has that power. The power of creating things from nothing. The creator has the power of creating things from nothing, because he has that power he doesn't need another being to bring him into existance, because if he is in need of another being to bring him into existance then he can't have the power because he needs it himself.
QUOTE
on the flip side, you can say that god was the original energy and he controls all energy around us thus making it impossible to create or take away energy but then there would be no scientific theories now to base that on.
If we say that god is the original energy, then we are back to the same question which we were trying to answer which is "Where did that original energy come from?"
QUOTE
because if there is a god, there must be a judgement day because it was in a book that was written by someone other than god himself
no, but because the energy and the matter and everything was created that means it has a begining and since everything that has a begining must have an end, when its end comes that will be judgement day. It depends on what you are referring to when you say judgement day I guess.
QUOTE
fact is, all you mentione was a theory.
I am mentioning an answer to the question: "If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?" and if this answer is wrong then give us a better answer or try to correct this answer.
The universal law that governs all scientific theories, and upon which all the physics theories are based, is the law of conservation of energy that states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another. What concerns us in this law is the following: If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?
A simple question that can only be answered scientifically with one answer: There must be a force that’s above the law itself, a creating force, a force that brought energy and matter into existence, and then put in place the law that organizes the behavior of energy, a force that will come at the end of time, to break the law a second time, or rather to remove it completely, and destroy all forms of energy and matter it created at the beginning, a force that will bring the universe as we know it to an end. This force in short is the power of God, who dared the human beings to just create a mosquito’s wing ( from nothing ).
O atheists, you who claim to understand science, and understand the world without a god, how do you understand that ? Even though it doesn’t make sense scientifically or logically, for every simply design must have a designer, let alone the universe and the complex creatures, coincidence ? Gather the sheets of metal and the glass and the rubber, and mix them together for some millions of years, you won’t get out of them a Mercedes!!
That’s the end of the translation. What do you guys think about this ? Are there any flaws in this? Or does it make sense ? The door of debate is open…
the funny thing about this is that i argue very similar arguments with my science teacher last year in biology so its really funny that i tried to prove stuff the same scientists did. but this arguemnt has been argued the same way before and will continue to be argued this same way to come. i agree with what they say, but truthfully in a scintific world this would still be considered a theory just like the big bang theory.we'll all have to find out the truth when the time comes and for some of us it'll be way to late for them to enjoy it.
god is not energy he is the creator of the energy.
god is not energy? hmmm gee....ok.... god is the creator of energy.....hmmmm where are you getting your facts now? i thought we were assuming what the scientists say is fact. i must have been mistaken.
QUOTE(omarsdali @ Nov 28 2007, 04:40 PM)
I am mentioning an answer to the question: "If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?" and if this answer is wrong then give us a better answer or try to correct this answer.
i answered it already and disproved your theory. weren't you paying attention? all you based it on was assuming the scientists are correct
as far as my personal belief, i have already stated that as well.
you see, there is no basis to what you say because god exists either way in your theory. if energy cannot be created or destroyed, god exists. if energy CAN be created and destroyed, god exists. god exists eithr way in what you say so you aren't really creating much of an arguement, sorry....
Probably would have to be in the same question of, is there really a god?. There is no physical evidence or proof of whether a thing exists or not. I may be raised as a non-practising Catholic (as I dont really go to church except when it's at Christmas). But TBH, I guess it would be a wait and see type situation rather than using methods to find out, or going to the extremes like some people (eg cloning).
"The law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another." -Wikipedia
THE QUESTION:
"If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?"
A LOGICAL ANSWER(possibly the only logical answer):
"There must be a thing that is above the law itself, a thing that creates the energie first and then creates the law and puts it in place."
Whatever that thing is, god or not god, we don't know, because we can't prove what it is, but we know that there's a thing and we know that that thing can create.
"The law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another." -Wikipedia
THE QUESTION:
"If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?"
A LOGICAL ANSWER(possibly the only logical answer):
"There must be a thing that is above the law itself, a thing that creates the energie first and then creates the law and puts it in place."
Whatever that thing is, god or not god, we don't know, because we can't prove what it is, but we know that there's a thing and we know that that thing can create.
The largest hole I see is the assumption that energy was created, that there is a beginning. As finite beings we try to see things as finite, having a beginning and an end. What if that isn't true? What if it is true that energy cannot be created or destroyed? What if it has always existed, a timeline that expands out in both directions forever? The Universe had a beginning, but it came from energy and matter that existed before.
This thought doesn't prove or disprove God or gods one way or the other. God can still create our Universe with existing raw materials.
(omarsdali @ Nov 29 2007, 04:18 PM) This is the main point of the idea above:
THE SCIENTIFIC FACT:
"The law of conservation of energy states that energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another." -Wikipedia
THE QUESTION:
"If energy cannot be created or destroyed, where did all the energy that exists in the universe today come from ?"
A LOGICAL ANSWER(possibly the only logical answer):
"There must be a thing that is above the law itself, a thing that creates the energie first and then creates the law and puts it in place."
Whatever that thing is, god or not god, we don't know, because we can't prove what it is, but we know that there's a thing and we know that that thing can create.
The largest hole I see is the assumption that energy was created, that there is a beginning. As finite beings we try to see things as finite, having a beginning and an end. What if that isn't true? What if it is true that energy cannot be created or destroyed? What if it has always existed, a timeline that expands out in both directions forever? The Universe had a beginning, but it came from energy and matter that existed before.
This thought doesn't prove or disprove God or gods one way or the other. God can still create our Universe with existing raw materials.
I was discussing this idea a friend of mine at school today and he asked me why does the energy have to be created, why can't it exists forever. So that got me thinking and then a read your post and you make the same point and that got me thinking some more. and so here is what I came up with. The idea above is based on the big bang theory which states that the universe came from a point with zero volume and infinite mass, in other words, from nothing. so thats why the idea above is making the assumption that energy was created. But if we assume a diffrent theory for the universe like the theory that says the universe is stable and has existed forever then this is a diffrent case and we would have to say that the energy has existed forever and in this case it would be wrong to assume that the energy was created.
Haha... there will never be hard, tangible proof of a God or the absence of a God that will appease anyone.
I will first state that I am agnostic, maybe even atheist, so that every other religious poster can see my words here as biased and full of error.
I did, however, just read a really cool (and VERY dry) reading on the thoughts of Aquinas. In his writings, he establishes proof of a God by the process of induction, but one of the greatest arguments that I thought he had to prove the existence of God was that: we (as believers) have a clear and distinct idea of God; that the idea itself must have a cause; that this cause must be as real in cause as it is as an idea; that this idea of God can only come from God; and therefore, God exists.
What I found funny is that with those statements, just saying that "God doesn't exist" proves God's existence, because then you would have to have the idea of God to deny God's existence.
This, of course, raises the question from non-believers and naysayers: how is it that people could not have just conjured the idea of God? We've conjured up the idea of unicorns and fairies and aliens and dragons... why not God too?
(Of course, that's my stance too.)
I don't know if there is an answer to that, but in a way, it kind of makes sense. If we were just human beings, how was it that we even came up with the idea of God... possibly to give some sort of an answer to our existence? Couldn't we have just made everything up?
Then again, what if God gave us our ideas and we are just realizing them over a span of time?
Descartes takes an opposite approach to the existence of God, and I thought this interesting also. In his writings on Meditations of Philosophy, he mentions the principle of adequate reality, which simply states that something created cannot be better than the entity that created it. (We as humans can never create a better human being, ontologically-speaking. And no, robots do not count. Cloning creates an equal, but not a better being.) In this sense of the principle, there had to have been something that created us as human beings. That something would be God.
Descartes also proves, in principle, that there is only one God. If God is perfect, that means that there can't be multiple perfect gods, or else they would be comparable to each other. A short, simple, and sweet explanation. (If God ISN'T perfect or absolute or all-encompassing or all-powerful, then there must be something bigger, larger, faster, better than God...)
Of course, more naysay comes up with the question: So who, or what, created God? God couldn't have just come out of nowhere, would it? Then again, God is perfect, all-encompassing, absolute...
-
So if you are religious, or even if you are one of the naysayers like myself, I suggest you take up a college course in philosophy, or take a look at the philosophical views of Aquinas or Descartes... or any other philosopher that may have a stand on the existence of a greater power. It will at the very least stir up some good discussion instead of the usual "God just is" statements.
Since the translation directly asks atheists to take a bite at that, I am an atheist so I will take at shot at this huge theory the just tumbled my world
Theories Argument... where does all the energy we see today comes from? if energy cannot be created nor destroyed where did it came from? assumed logic... there is a flaw in the law and all energy was at one point introduced (created) by a greater being or thing. The assumption made... this thing that started energy is god... and since he/she created energy... he must be able to destroy it (presumed by article to be Judgment Day). Ther you have it religion is correct.. in your face atheists.
Mockery Response...
the law of conservation of energy/matter states thet energy/matter cannot be created nor destroyed, it can only change form or phases... since energy/matter cannot be created then the creator, god, in fact is not a spontaneous creator but rather a source... therefore it has changed form and turned into energy and matter as we know it today... resolution....... I AM GOD.
Real Response
To say that we know that something at one point created energy is wrong because we do not know that... it is only an assumption made by the finite way of thinking of us human beings. We tend to want to limit things, we want a beginning and an end to it. and the things that do not have an end to it we place an icon for it... example numbers... they do not have a beginning nor an end... but we have placed an icon for both the "beginning" (minus infinity) and the "end" (infinity). We can stretch this idea and assume that god is just the icon created to satisfy the need to have a beginning and an end... swallow that Arab dude who's name is not mentioned in the quoting...
As has been pointed out, the biggest flaw with this "theory" is that it assumes that everything must have come from SOMETHING. It goes onto assume that a God must have created everything. But then one must consider: from whence did the God spawn? From whence did that which God spawned from spawn?
The idea that a thing must have a beginning is thus refuted.
One is then inclined to bring up that it has pretty much been proved that the Big Bang happened, and that all matter and energy as we know it exploded from a single, infinitesimal point. However this also relies on assumption, the worst one ever made: That matter/energy are separate entities from space.
Honestly, in something that we call the uni- verse, how can we POSSIBLY think that there is more than one kind of "stuff"? How is it not immediately obvious that all "stuffs" in the universe are actually different forms of the same "stuff"?
Einstein has made the claim E=mc^2, which is widely accepted as true. This effectively states that mass is a form of energy. Einstein's theories of relativity also states that space is a physical, warping thing...if all that reacts to the bending of space is considered different forms of the same thing, while each having their own sets of reactions, the theoretical path leads from there to the conclusion that Space = Energy = Mass=Stuff.
And before somebody uses the argument that we each seem to have a personal consciousness, I must point out that it isn't entirely impossible for there to be a "biotic" form of energy. It certainly makes sense that living things would have their own unique energy, given their apparently erratic behaviour. The idea that there could be a sort of "life energy" allows the concept that we each are indeed physical beings, yet with our own separate consciousnesses; while still supporting the claim that everything is made of a universal, neutral "stuff".
It really is a debatable topic. One that I've wondered myself, but I dont believe in God. I believe were controll our own destiny, lifes and our fate. Its not all decided but a figure we can not see, or have no 'Hard Fact' they exist. Yes their is Bibles, etc, but a book, espeically one so hard to read, cant prove anything. Well thats my opinion.. a little off topic, but not by much
Bhagavadgita says, In the end, there is no such thing as God or Satan. There is neither Good Or bad. There is just one (Conscience). And you are me and I am you.
You do not have to search for God. You have to start the journey from inside within you. Once you reach the end i.e. when you meet your conscience, you discover yourself as God.
It really is a debatable topic. One that I've wondered myself, but I dont believe in God. I believe were controll our own destiny, lifes and our fate. Its not all decided but a figure we can not see, or have no 'Hard Fact' they exist. Yes their is Bibles, etc, but a book, espeically one so hard to read, cant prove anything. Well thats my opinion.. a little off topic, but not by much biggrin.gif
If a god exists, it doesn't automatically mean that we don't control our destiny, and our lives and our fate. We can still have free will and have a god exists at the same time. There is no conflict there.
QUOTE
Its not all decided but a figure we can not see,
Although we can't see it, we can see it's creations, it's traces...
QUOTE
Yes their is Bibles, etc, but a book, espeically one so hard to read, cant prove anything.
We never tried to prove anything using the bible, we are trying to use science to prove that god exists, no one said anything about the bible.
You might have heard a lot of people going on about how their religion is true but I'm not going
to rant on about anything, I'm just going to tell you the straight-forward facts. The Qur'an
has many scientific truths that have only been proven to be correct recently. This is truely a
miracle in my eyes, so please go on to this website and read about 'em now!
http://www.islam-guide.com/ If you don't agree with me (which I doubt you will), don't
worry, I'm not going to kill you Some facts about Islam: The Qur'an says that The Torah ....
QUOTE The greatest lie of the demon has been to convince us that it doesn't exist
I belwive this is true. We
convince our self that the "evil" doesn't exist. Who told that masturbation, sex before
marriage, to judje others, betrayal, etc. are bad thinks? ....
1. It is very important to be quite clear about the sense in which one is using the words as :
Science , Theory and Evolutions. 2. In school text books there is confusion in the use of the term
'evolution' . There are many different ways the word 'evolution' is used. It is very
important to be quite clear about the sense in which one is using the word. One of these defination
Evolution as minor variations and adaptations (which is in fact the micro evolution definition). So
it is better to count the types of the evolution. There are 6 types of evolution....
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