I agree with Galahad. Whats god, has anybody seen Him these days? ( i know he was seen 2000 years ago ). The whole thing is created because humans needed to blame someone for all bad and all good things happening to them. God was created because humans had to give an explanation for their existence. If god was as they presented Him to us, would he allow two world wars? would he allow the killing of so many innocent people? (and would he allow Bush to be the president? )

Reply

Toyclergy,
You mention that God oversees, permeates, and orders all things, which implies omnipotence. You stated that we can turn to God when we are confused about our role in the order of things. But does God care about us, or is he more of an unknown scientific principle?
How can we deal with the suffering around us, and what is the source of that suffering?
Is there good and evil? Is God good?

Reply

No, i don't think god cares about us as we care about ourselves. We view our existences from the inside, so there are many things we see and cannot understand how they fit in with the big picture, the whole. This affects our interests, and our self-concerns and concerns about those close to us are fairly narrow. Most of us don't like death and pain and suffering and war because we don't want any of it happening to us or our loved ones. We have no right to blame the Creator of all things simply because these things show up suddenly on our doorstep. We know they exist before they show up, and if we live our lives in a comfortable little state of oblivion doing nothing to understand or change these things until they happen to us, then we have made our own miserable beds. THEY EXIST!! If there were no reason for their existence, they would have faded away by now. We say they are evil, bad, bad things and shouldn't happen to anyone.. THIS IS OUR OWN PETTY FEARS TALKING. We think life is OURS and nothing should take it from us. We think health is ours and nothing should change it. This is a moronic choice to ignore the reality of natural law. You will die. You will get sick. You will suffer. Understand that these things are true, stop acting as if you are immortal, and find something to make these things worthwhile! Life is temporary, and part of living is finding something MORE important to us than ourselves... finding something to justify our existences... finding something WORTH DYING FOR. A life centered around the preservation of life and nothing else is futile and pointless, time WILL defeat you. If you don't like the way things are, then use your free will and act to change them! If your will and Gods will coincide, you will succeed. If you don't succeed, then i guess you will know you were wrong.

Good and evil are two sides of the same coin: existence. God minted the coin, and we named the sides. We make judgements about the sides of the coin, but these are OUR judgements and not Gods. The coin exists. We did not make the coin.

There are laws and patterns that all things in existence follow, including us. Every action we take with our free will is taken within the confines of this divine scheme. Yes, i think God is good, but not because divine will coincides with our conceptions of what is beneficial to us. God is good because there is no greater power; no person place or thing is powerful enough to define what is "better." "Evil" is nothing more than human dissatisfaction trying to establish itself as a divine (or anti-divine) force.

If god is all-powerful, then all things exist because he wills it. Evil exists, then, because god wills it. If god is all-powerful, then what god wills is the highest determinant of what is good. Therefore, evil is good. The distinction between the two lies only in human conception.

 

 

 

Reply

I suppose it is easy to believe that we created God in order to understand our own existence, but only if you have ideas about what God and existence should be and your perceptions don't match these ideas. It is human arrogance, based in the importance we place on ourselves and our own explanations, to ridicule what we only pretend to understand or refuse to accept. You still live a life you did not create. Your existence is still bound by laws you did not set in motion. You are still just an aspect of the patterns evolving around you. Saying "so what, it doesn't mean anything" does not nullify these truths. Existence is a mystery, regardless of how tempting it may be to believe we know everything there is to know about it.

People don't think God is seen these days because most don't bother to look. You don't recognize E Coli unless you know what it is. You don't notice a leech until you get out of the water. You won't see the undefinable if you believe you have it defined; it will invariably escape your view, because you will look for something that exists only in your own opinions. You could see a brown recluse 50 times and swear you haven't if you only know them as 'spiders'.

Those that look, see, and tell, are still around in abundance. We put them in straightjackets or just point at them an laugh. Of course, they don't qualify as "people," do they?

Reply

Ok this is turning into a whether God is real or not discussion and I don't really think that it should go there. Trying to prove omnipitent beings is something I try to stay away from just because circumstantial evidence can be interpreted any way a person wants it to be.

But since it seems that God is the man, why do you pray to God? Can't you pray to anything else?

Reply

ppl should take responisblity for their own lives.. not leave it up tp gods will

Reply

Very well said

I did read today though in The Nov 2004 issue of Scientific American (publication that has been around for almost 200 years) that there is no REAL scientific evidence of a being that would be deemed God.

Reply

Spawn, I thought you didn't want this to turn into a discussion of whether or not God is real... you seem to be doing that anyway.
Unfortunately, that question (is God real) is fundamental to the issue of prayer - having a stance on prayer is meaningless unless you also have a stance on the existence of God. If there is no God, then your prayer goes no further than your own ears, and you're just talking to yourself. But if there is a God, the effect of prayer depends on what God is like.
I think we can agree that God, if he exists, is omnipotent and omniscient. So if God is impersonal, caring nothing for your welfare specifically, then your prayers are useless, since he already knows everything and has dominion over everything. But if God is personal, things get more interesting.
The God written about in the Bible has instructed his disciples to pray to him. Since he already knows everything, there has to be more to prayer than simple communication. Prayer (me, coming to God with my needs and praise and whatever else) puts me in an appropriate attitude for God to work in my heart. Since God has chosen to give humans free will, prayer is a way that we can relate to God appropriately (as children, coming with needs, not imagining that somehow God owes us something).
If anyone's interested I can edit this later to include the relevant Biblical references.
Toyclergy, your last post was right on. I couldn't agree more.

Reply

I didn't, I just wanted to point that out so that no one can say they have REAL scientific evidence because that is getting real old.

Anyway, anyone else care to exspouse why they pray ^^! trust me I don't think badly or judge anyone for it, I just want to know the different reasons.

Reply

I still say that prayer just makes you feel better about what is going on around you. It takes away from you guilt and personal responsibility. Do not pray to a g*d that is not here to do something it would be so much easier for you to do yourself. I am not saying that I do not believe in outside forces at work in your life. But I do think it is stupid for people to pray to something not even physically there to do something you can do yourself.
Often when people pray and then something "miraculous" (spelling?) happens they say that g*d did not. But are you sure. People make things happen by force of their own will. We have all seen accounts of this even in the smallest. You want something to happen so much that your energy is raised to such a degree to change what is happening around you.
This would technically make prayer a misinformed ill cast ritual.

Thankyou for your time.

Reply