Read Latest Entries..: (Post #80) by kobra500 on Mar 14 2008, 10:06 PM. (Line Breaks Removed)
QUOTE(kasm @ Apr 30 2006, 07:22 AM) - It is not normal. Show me in nature, any other animals have homosextual relationship. In facts in wild, two adult lions can not live in the same region. Two queen bees can not be together, they have to divide their kingdom.- It is against the production of next generation.- If for any reason the gay people can not act as nature expect from them, then... read more.
Gay rights has been a controversial topic for a long time. In this discussion i would like you to please NOT include religion. The reason is in America the choices are not supposed to be based on religion. So with that in mind read on.
For me i don't understand why this is even a controversial topic. I can understand people who are against it for religious reasons, but why else. If nothing else then it should be allowed right? No, i guess not. Why is it such a big deal. George Bush even wants to make it an amendment against it.
The reasons why most laws are made are for safety and so the country does not go into chaos. Being gay, homosexual, does not hurt anyone. In fact it is hard to be a gay male/female. Not many people agree with it and they could lose the friends. So why is this illegal. I think they should be able to get married. They are life partners now anyway. Would it make that much of a difference? I guess they would get tax cuts and a piece of paper showing they are married, but not really anything else. To be staight up i think its none of anyones business.
Okay, first of all I'm not an American. Actually I'm from Denmark, the first country in the world that made gay marrige legal... I totally agree. There is nothing wrong with being gay in any way and if they cant get married, then I would call it discrimination... America is a free country. If you believe in marriage, then you should be free to marriage no matter who you chose to do so with.
About the laws I can only say this much: How can it be legal to smoke - and thereby harm yourself and your surroundings and get extremely addicted.. aka. a bad thing, but not marry the one you love?
The thing about America (besides being run by a bunch of mindless idiots -sorry, couldn't help it) is that a lot of people are very narrow minded. I'm sorry, but they are. Few even cares what is going on outside America... They just listen proudly when they are told that America is the best country in the world... They are told that there's freedom and justice for all.. uhm! Except for gays, blacks, immigrants, homeless people, poor people, asian people and so on! If this is truely a free country with justice for ALL, how can it not be legal to marry whoever you want to... Love is the greatest thing.
Uhm, official appology if I offended any American. I'm not saying this is a horrible place, just that there's things here very different from where I come from and.. For me it seems kind of wrong. I am. as I said, from Denmark, and not use to see poverty, discrimination and extreme religion as you are...
Okay, first of all I'm not an American. Actually I'm from Denmark, the first country in the world that made gay marrige legal... I totally agree. There is nothing wrong with being gay in any way and if they cant get married, then I would call it discrimination... America is a free country. If you believe in marriage, then you should be free to marriage no matter who you chose to do so with.
About the laws I can only say this much: How can it be legal to smoke - and thereby harm yourself and your surroundings and get extremely addicted.. aka. a bad thing, but not marry the one you love?
The thing about America (besides being run by a bunch of mindless idiots -sorry, couldn't help it) is that a lot of people are very narrow minded. I'm sorry, but they are. Few even cares what is going on outside America... They just listen proudly when they are told that America is the best country in the world... They are told that there's freedom and justice for all.. uhm! Except for gays, blacks, immigrants, homeless people, poor people, asian people and so on! If this is truely a free country with justice for ALL, how can it not be legal to marry whoever you want to... Love is the greatest thing. Uhm, official appology if I offended any American. I'm not saying this is a horrible place, just that there's things here very different from where I come from and.. For me it seems kind of wrong. I am. as I said, from Denmark, and not use to see poverty, discrimination and extreme religion as you are...
- It is not normal. Show me in nature, any other animals have homosextual relationship. In facts in wild, two adult lions can not live in the same region. Two queen bees can not be together, they have to divide their kingdom.
- It is against the production of next generation.
- If for any reason the gay people can not act as nature expect from them, then let this not by shouting or make prades or asking equality in every items of life . Disable people can be respected but they have to know their abnormality. The blind or deaf people have not to go fight and say it is equality. The people with heart problem have not to practice hard activities. People with bone problem have not to compete in running or swimming. People with sight problem and using glasses better to them not participate in some activitites.
I don't understand the exclusion of Religion on this topic. Isn't there a phrase on the back of each American dollar bill which states "In God We Trust"? How can we possibly exclude Religion in this topic when the American mindset is so tied to Religion that it is written on all of your almighty dollars? Additionally, there is a morality issue involved here and Religion plays a part in each of our Moral opinions. Whether you believe in a "Christian" God, or any God at all, there is an influence there which will impact our opinions which has as its root the religious beliefs we hold, so I suspect, as does Tyssen, that it will be nearly impossible to dis-allow Religion from this debate. I look forward to reviewing the replies.
Gay Rights is a very controversial one. I do not understand their stand very well so my perception about them may not be too deep. However, as far as my understanding goes in a country which is too free, I feel that there may be more gays than it is actually supposed to be - because some people just want to try out new things and they are finally addicted to it. Though there may be real gays - but in that kind of situation there might be people who practice gay because they have experimented. So, too much freedom may be bad if not used properly.
In Asia, and Middle East Gay Rights is not an issue because most of the people think it as immoral to do so but still who are gays are still living as gay. So, marriages to become legal does not arise as well.
For me, I do not want to really see gay marriage being legalized. It should be treated at par with Prostitutes who are doing what they want. Prostitution may be legalized likewise Gays should be given space to do what they want to do, but not legalizing their marriages. Marriages should be only between man and woman.
That is my take. As much as gays have the right to say what they think is right - I do have the right to say what I think is correct.
Whether you believe in a "Christian" God, or any God at all, there is an influence there which will impact our opinions which has as its root the religious beliefs we hold, so I suspect, as does Tyssen, that it will be nearly impossible to dis-allow Religion from this debate.
That wasn't actually what I was hinting at. There's so many obviously religious people on this board that I felt sure that it would be too much for someone to resist bringing it up.
- It is not normal. Show me in nature, any other animals have homosextual relationship. In facts in wild, two adult lions can not live in the same region. Two queen bees can not be together, they have to divide their kingdom.
A substantial minority of wild animals are homosexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality...sexual_behavior). And I suppose that since animals don't have free will or souls, God wanted them to fornicate with their own sex...::rolls his eyes::
I think the entire discussion over gay marriage is flawed. Religious marriage is not comparable to legal marriage. States should issue couples civil union licenses, and whether they're married should be between them and their religious leader. That way you're free to say that homosexuals aren't allowed to marry under your religion, but I'm fine to say that they are under mine.
- It is not normal. Show me in nature, any other animals have homosextual relationship. In facts in wild, two adult lions can not live in the same region. Two queen bees can not be together, they have to divide their kingdom.
While I may not be the person to say this, I can assure you that it is normal. There have been scientific studies of childeren who simply choose to act more "feminine" than the other boys (in fact, the children who were studied for the specific study i'm talking about were TWINS, and one boy was "boyish", the other boy was "girlish"). This happened under the same parenting. Later, though not necessarely true, the study showed that the girlish boy would later become gay.
And my reason for it not occuring in nature is the fact that all other animals have been shown to be less intelligent than humans. It is more than likely that the thought never really came up to them.
QUOTE(kasm @ Apr 30 2006, 12:22 AM)
- It is against the production of next generation.
Are you honestly saying that this world needs MORE reproduction? THe populations are friggin HUGE dude.
QUOTE(kasm @ Apr 30 2006, 12:22 AM)
- If for any reason the gay people can not act as nature expect from them, then let this not by shouting or make prades or asking equality in every items of life . Disable people can be respected but they have to know their abnormality. The blind or deaf people have not to go fight and say it is equality. The people with heart problem have not to practice hard activities. People with bone problem have not to compete in running or swimming. People with sight problem and using glasses better to them not participate in some activitites.
So you are saying that being gay is similar to having a heart disease, or not having functional legs? And it seems as if, in this particular quote, you are saying nothing but that gays aren't able to function like a couple of different sexes (as in, can't have kids). So what? What's your point?
QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Apr 30 2006, 12:27 AM)
Gay Rights is a very controversial one. I do not understand their stand very well so my perception about them may not be too deep. However, as far as my understanding goes in a country which is too free, I feel that there may be more gays than it is actually supposed to be - because some people just want to try out new things and they are finally addicted to it. Though there may be real gays - but in that kind of situation there might be people who practice gay because they have experimented. So, too much freedom may be bad if not used properly.
Umm... so you are saying that gays might not be "real" gays, and therefore shouldn't be allowed to marry? If they are not real gays, they would not stay "fake gay" long enough to marry, and thus that should not be a problem.
QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Apr 30 2006, 12:27 AM)
In Asia, and Middle East Gay Rights is not an issue because most of the people think it as immoral to do so but still who are gays are still living as gay. So, marriages to become legal does not arise as well.
So what? The United States are not Asia, nor the Middle East.
QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Apr 30 2006, 12:27 AM)
For me, I do not want to really see gay marriage being legalized. It should be treated at par with Prostitutes who are doing what they want. Prostitution may be legalized likewise Gays should be given space to do what they want to do, but not legalizing their marriages. Marriages should be only between man and woman.
Why? What compells you to say that (talking about your last sentence) (unless its no different than your last two paragraphs...) And also, I don't see your comparison between prostitutes and gays to be very accurate. You see, prostitutes go out and live on the street, have no jobs (except for being a prostitute), and just have sex over and over and over again. Gays are actually in relationships. I live in San Francisco, I see them and know them. They don't go walking around the street with one guy's hand down the other guy's pants or something like that... no that does not happen. Your comparison of gays and prostitutes is both inaccurate and disrespectful to gays.
And thus, I think gays should be given the rights to be wed. My first argument is that it does not harm anyone. No one is going to suddenly be sick to the stomache when they see two guys standing next to each other, being (or believing that they are) in love. I'll add more arguments later, if the need arises =p
edit: took out end of the guy's quote that was left in, and:
I agree with WindandWater's idea. It should be legal to be married and be gay, but religions should still have the right to not marry someone because of being gay. That's a good compromise.
1. Being gay is not natural. And as you know Americans have always rejected unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.
2. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.
3. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because, as you know, a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
4. Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.
5. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed. The sanctity of Britany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.
6. Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.
7. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
8. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.
9. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.
10. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.
- It is not normal. Show me in nature, any other animals have homosextual relationship. In facts in wild, two adult lions can not live in the same region. Two queen bees can not be together, they have to divide their kingdom.
- It is against the production of next generation.
- If for any reason the gay people can not act as nature expect from them, then let this not by shouting or make prades or asking equality in every items of life . Disable people can be respected but they have to know their abnormality. The blind or deaf people have not to go fight and say it is equality. The people with heart problem have not to practice hard activities. People with bone problem have not to compete in running or swimming. People with sight problem and using glasses better to them not participate in some activitites.
You asked my opinion and I gave it.
I know this post is old but
QUOTE
Show me in nature, any other animals have homosextual relationship
there are god knows how many cases of homosexuality in animals so get you facts straight, I don't know but recently there was a topic which named alot and no religion is not an excuse because times change do you really believe that these religious books proven to have been written by "straight men" are not bias at all! The bible itself was written by a select panel of people whom took various stories from well known and respected religious books and you expect they are in no way bias or homophobic!
First of all, I do not see the point in excluding religious beliefs, and here's why:
Everyone is 'religious' in the sense of having strongly held beliefs about whether (or not) God exists, what eternity holds, what's of ultimate eternal value, etc. What makes one person's belief that God exists any less valid than the belief of someone who believes He doesn't exist?
In fact, the reason so many people appeal to the idea of a Creator or deity is because otherwise absolute morality can't really exist at all. You see, there's nothing making any one of our opinions more important than anyone else's, unless it is the absolute contradiction of logic which disqualifies one person's view (obviously saying God is both good and evil or light and darkness is logically wrong, since both views are mutually exclusive, and mutually exclusive contradictory views can not be equally true). And we can not even make ourselves an inch taller by our own efforts, let alone be the instituters of an ultimate moral law. Furthermore, we do not have the authority or righteousness to set it over our fellow human beings since we are all the same and all do wrong things.
Therefore, for an absolute moral code to exist to the universe, it must have been set in place by a deity. This is why when speaking of morality, people so often reference a deity, because they recognize their knowledge, power, righteousness, and authority is lacking in what is needed to know or create a universal moral code, and that the only way they can truly be right about morality is if God Himself set a universal moral code to the universe and some way or another, transmitted that knowledge to them in a sure way.
Furthermore, if you read the statements of Lincoln, Washington, and Adams, they all firmly believed in God and the Bible, and that belief definitely influenced how they governed as well. In fact, if religious belief does NOT penetrate to our political views, daily actions, and in short, all aspects of our life, we have a word for that - 'HYPOCRITE'. Therefore, you are asking people to be hypocrites and act apart from their most strongly held beliefs, which, I will not do.
With all that said, I will now address the issue... from a Christian's perspective, because that is what I am. You can not separate me from my beliefs and faith, or I would not be who I am.
I once believed I should leave the issue of gay marriage alone. It seemed as if homosexuals were being unfairly targeted. After all, the Bible says adultery, divorce, and premarital sex are all sexual sins as well, and are grouped together with homosexuality as the sin of fornication, or sexual sin outside God's plan of marriage between one man and one woman. And yet, people often ignore those sins but focus on homosexuality.
However, what a friend pointed out to me is that gay marriage gets focused on because it is not us who started focusing on homosexuals, trying to take away their freedoms. Rather, it is them who are trying to change laws that have stood for centuries. They already have the right to live however they wish in the freedom of their own homes.
Rather, they are trying to force us as a nation to change what we consider right and moral in the context of marriage. Have you ever heard the phrase, "your right to throw a punch stops where the other person's nose begins"? I do not like the homosexual lifestyle, but I recognize God has given them free will as to us all, and we all mess up. I can not condemn their lifestyle without being guilty, since I myself am sinful. As Jesus told the Pharisees wanting to stone the adulteress, one can not justly cast the first stone (i.e. punish a person for moral wrongdoing) without being sinless themselves.
Rather, I oppose gay marriage because I believe in protecting morality in our country. We are changing too much of what we consider moral, and thus our country will suffer. I believe in protecting the definition of marriage in our country based on what is moral, just as I believe in standards of decency in our public media. Our children are exposed to it, and when something is publicly available, it is everyone's business.
I would not dream of silencing a homosexual's voice to speak out about what they believe. God gave them free will, even as He gave it to me. However, I expect the right to speak out about my beliefs on what is right and moral, and to vote accordingly, even as homosexuals are doing. I expect to have the same rights they do, in that context.
I oppose gay marriage because homosexuals already have the right to live however they choose. The right they seek is to FORCE US AS A NATION TO RECOGNIZE THEIR UNIONS AS MORAL AND ACCEPTABLE, AS WELL AS FORCING US TO CHANGE OUR VIEWS ON WHAT MARRIAGE IS. For those of us who believe such a definition of marriage is not a moral one, we will naturally stand up against it.
With that said, I also would like to see the law allowing divorce annulled so that divorce is only allowed in clear cases of adultery. I do not believe in legislating crimes against premarital sex or adultery, since those are lifestyle choices involving free will. You see, I am trying not to intrude on the free will of others while upholding standards of decency for our country. I believe both can be done.
The only reason why we are excluding religions beliefs are because the state is sworn not to have any religion. (Well, maybe not America, but the rest of the world. America is not the world.)
It is true that you can't separate a (wo)man from his(her) religious beliefs, and that (s)he has the rights to uphold those beliefs. But that doesn't mean you have the right to force those beliefs on other people. As you say in one of your own arguments, "your right to throw a punch stops where the other person's nose (or any other body part) begins." By imposing your beliefs and morals on them, you're punching them in the nose.
Of course you can voice your opinion. However, it's the other people's right to not listen to it.
To see the law allowing divorce annulled except for adultery... how about abuse? I don't think most people will divorce except for those two cases anyway. It's a common-sense human psychological lesson that humans will pursue the things that they cannot have, and will leave alone the things that they do.
I myself am pro-choice for any issue. Sure, homosexuality is "unnatural" and all that, but sometimes we have that natural impulse. Not all of us do - maybe about five percent of the population. They are genetically dispositioned to do so - they can't control it.
Here in Canada, homosexually married couples are legally allowed to become common-law partners, which have the same rights as formally married couples anyway.
If someone in a religion doesn't want their people to be gay, then let them preach that to their people. Don't make it spill over into the legal areas, which are to be unaffected by religion.
I would never marry another man myself, but I still think others should have those rights.
First of all, I do not believe in god (don't flame because i'll just uberly ignore you) and I am NOT gay.
I do believe in freedom of ideals. Anyone can do anything as long as it doesn't affect someone else directly (and in a bad way). This should apply to everything.
Being gay can be something unnatural, but there's a lot of things people deem unnatural and still do. I just don't understand your needs to control other people's life. Does it affect you if they are gay and marry? No... as easy as that.
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