Immigration : Debate On Immigration By Senate - Allow illegal immigrants to work toward legal status

PsyberMind

Mar 30 2006, 02:50 AM

From CNN:

QUOTE

The Senate opened a debate on immigration Wednesday, with Majority Leader Bill Frist saying he will oppose a controversial proposal to allow illegal immigrants to work toward legal status. How to handle immigration and the estimated 11 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. has become a hot-button issue in the run-up to this year's elections.

Heres my take on it.. First of all, I question Senator Harkin when he said:

From Learfield Communications/Radio Iowa:

QUOTE

Harkin says it's an earned program of legalization that allows the illegal immigrants to earn their way by working, paying a fine and learning English. Harkin says there are 11 to 12 million illegal aliens in the country, many of whom are already contributing to the nation's prosperity. He says they're filling jobs that in most cases go unfilled, and they're not going away.

What I see here, is a United States Senator saying that "Oh Well, We dont care if they've been here for years illegally.. we're just going to turn our backs on that little detail and make them legal." What are they thinking? Immigrant workers taking jobs that others wont take? Well we would take them if the illegal immigrants weren't gobbling them all up!

I dont want to get too much into this in THIS post.. I would like to open it up first.

Tyssen

Mar 30 2006, 03:03 AM

QUOTE(PsyberMind @ Mar 30 2006, 12:50 PM)

Immigrant workers taking jobs that others wont take? Well we would take them if the illegal immigrants weren't gobbling them all up!

You'd think so but in a lot of cases, locals aren't prepared to do the type of work that immigrants (legal or otherwise) seem to pick up. As for making illegals legal, maybe it's actually cheaper for the government? I don't know anything about how your system works, I'm just posing a possibility.

truefusion

Mar 30 2006, 03:13 AM

QUOTE(PsyberMind @ Mar 29 2006, 09:50 PM)

Yea, they're gobbling them up, cause they're not filled! Where were these other people, legal citizens, when these jobs became available? Apparently, nowhere. These immigrants came here to earn a living. How does that happen? By getting hired.

Mich

Mar 30 2006, 04:46 AM

QUOTE(truefusion @ Mar 29 2006, 10:13 PM)

Well, it is not all that simple. Maybe the people were there looking for the jobs, but the organization hired some employment agency to do their hiring for them. Then this employment agency is working for the purpose of finding jobs for illegals. This is what happened in Michigan. A tribe of Indians in Acme, MI, bought a large hotel complex. They didn't have the knowledge to hire the employees they needed, so they contracted an employment agency to do it for them. Unfortunately, this agency had a pool of illegals to draw from and they hired them on to work for the hotel. They were eventually found out, but look at the jobs that legal citizens could have been hired for if this agency had been on the up and up. Jobs are hard to find on your own. I went through a legitimate employment agency years ago myself. So don't be too quick to condemn the legals that "weren't around". Another thing you need to take into consideration is that these illegals are most of the time working and living as a group. This way they can gobble up all the minimum wage part-time jobs, combine their resources and survive. So many employers are going to this format to save having to pay benefits. People cannot survive in today's economy in these sorts of jobs. My goodness, it takes two full-time incomes at least just to buy a house.

Now as to the Senator's solution. Bah, Humbug. If they are in this country illegally, they need to be sent back where they came from.

Tyssen

Mar 30 2006, 04:51 AM

QUOTE(Mich @ Mar 30 2006, 02:46 PM)

If they are in this country illegally, they need to be sent back where they came from.

That was the point I was trying to make: what if the cost of tracking down, rounding up, detaining, processing and deporting these people is more expensive than letting them stay and making them pay taxes?

Kim

Mar 30 2006, 05:17 AM

But isn't of America the land of promise for years now? Weren't your ancestors immigrants? How were they different from these immigrants? Why not incorporate them into the melting pot that is America and make it harder for them to leave?

semeticsister

Mar 30 2006, 05:50 AM

I happen to be an immigrant. Me an dmy family immigrated here when I was three years old, and we were honest hard-working people. And about the thing PsyberMind said about immigrants "gobbling up" our jobs, that is just plain STUPID. It's not like some Mexican waits in a parking lot, ambushes some guy and literally takes his job. That's not how it works. Some lazy fat American elitist snob is probably thinking that mopping up vomit is "beneath his dignity" so what do you think companies like walmart and target are going to do? Of course they're going to hire illegal immigrants! (or legal immigrants for that matter)

And I totally agree with what Kim said about our ancestors being immigrants and America being just one big melting pot. If it weren't for immigrants, America would just be some bland and boring country.

And as for Mich saying that illegal immigrants need to be sent back to where they came from, that is the epitome of American mentality. Face it, the culture and appeal of America is built on illegality and vice. Would Las Vegas be so tempting if their were no casinos and prostitutes? Back in the 1920's during Prohibition, were there not people in speakeasies brewing illegal alcohol?

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-American or anything. I'm proud to be a citizen of this country and I am glad that I escaped from the anti-semetism of the USSR at the tender age of 3. But sometimes, Americans can just be downright ignorant.

PsyberMind

Mar 30 2006, 05:57 PM

QUOTE(semeticsister @ Mar 29 2006, 11:50 PM)

Some lazy fat American elitist snob is probably thinking that mopping up vomit is "beneath his dignity" so what do you think companies like walmart and target are going to do? Of course they're going to hire illegal immigrants! (or legal immigrants for that matter)

But typically that isnt the case. Employers hire immigrant workers simply because they will work for any compensation rate. Because employers are too cheap to pay people what they are worth. Instead, they pay someone peanuts to mop up a floor when a qualified janitor, who is worth at least 6 bucks an hour, is just too expensive. And I'm not talking about coroporate jobs. I'm talking about labor based jobs.. Fields, meat processing plants, etc.. companies like that hire migrant workers because TYPICALLY.. not always.. they can get away with paying them under the minimum wage, when someone who WANTS to work, who is legal, but KNOWS how much they should be paid, is shunned away because it costs the employer too much

I mean, I'm all for immigration reform, but to simply turn our backs on people who have been here for years illegally and just issue them a green card like they did nothing wrong? I dont think thats the best course of action

trace-uk

Mar 30 2006, 08:40 PM

I think its weird that people form the USA, UK, canada, and australia have to go through allt hese check to immigrate to each of these countries. I mean, they've all got the same culture and genetically most of the populations in the countries are very similar, they all speak english (hell the UK invented the english language). And they are all very, very, very close allies.

Anyone else agree? Shoudln't there be an open borders policy like there is in the EU? I can go to live in france or spain NOW without any green card (and that's a different culture and language) but I can't go to australia or canada without a greencard????

Also, all of these countries have really good economies.

wariorpk

Mar 30 2006, 08:51 PM

I am all for legal immigration but illegal immigration is wrong and should be cracked down on. If you come to this country without filling out the proper forms and what not the government does not know that you are here. You do not have to pay taxes and if citizens have to pay taxes to live here people who are not citizens should as well. People can just come right over the boarder and cause harm to our country. If you have nothing to hide whats wrong with comming here legally?

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dylan2xs

Dec 4 2006, 01:02 AM

what?! A fence around our entire southern border? mm well I don't think any of you talked about the cost of building a good fence there. It would cost a big fortune! Also, we don't have enough men to enforce the border, because they are all in Iraq and Afganistan!! I am totally sure that "rounding up" all of the illegals would be litterally impossible!!, and would also cost all the money that we don't have right now.

Albus Dumbledore

Sep 30 2006, 05:26 AM

since this is a topic about illegal imigration, im not goinng to bothermaking a new topic for this, but i just got this in an e-mail and could not agree more! i see things like this happening all of the time, graffiti on computers, breaking of computers, and everything else!!

QUOTE

From an American school teacher - - -

"As you listen to the news about the student protests over illegal
immigration there are some things that you should be aware of:

I am in charge of the English-as-a-second-language department at a
large
southern California high school which is designated aTitle 1 school,
meaning
that its students average lower socio-economic and income levels.

Most of the schools you are hearing about - South Gate High, Bell
Gardens,
Huntington Park, etc.-where these students are protesting, are also
Title 1
schools.

One hundred percent of the students in this school and other Title 1
schools
are on the free breakfast and free lunch program. When I say free
breakfast
I'm not talking a glass of milk and roll -- but a full breakfast and
cereal
bar with fruits and juices that would make a Marriott proud.

The waste of this food is monumental, with trays and trays of it being
dumped in the trash uneaten. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I estimate that well over 50% of these students are obese or at least
moderately overweight. About 75% or more DO have cell phones.

The school also provides day care centers for the unwed teenage
pregnant
girls (some as young as 13) so they can attend class without the
inconvenience of having to arrange for babysitters or having family
watch
their kids. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I was ordered to spend $700,000 on my department or risk losing funding
for
the upcoming year even though there was little need for anything; my
budget
was already substantial.

I ended up buying new computers for the computer learning center; half
of
which, one month later, have been carved with graffiti by the
appreciative
students who obviously feel humbled and grateful to have a free
education in
America. (OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK)

I have had to intervene several times for young and substitute teachers
whose classes consist of many illegal immigrant students here in the
country
less then 3 months who raised so much hell with the female teachers,
calling
them "Putas"(whores)and throwing things that the teachers were in
tears.

Free medical, free education, free food, day care etc., etc., etc. Is
it any
wonder they feel entitled to not only be in this country but to demand
rights, privileges and entitlements?

To my bleeding-heart friends who want to point out how much these
illegal
immigrants contribute to our society because they LIKE their gardener
and
housekeeper and they like to pay less for tomatoes: spend some time in
the
real world of illegal immigration and see the TRUE cost s.

Higher insurance, Medical facilities closing, higher medical costs,
more
crime, lower standards of education in our schools, overcrowding, new
diseases etc., etc., etc. For me, I'll pay more for tomatoes.

We need to wake up. The guest worker program will be a disaster because
we
won't have the guts to enforce it.

Does anyone in their right mind really think they will voluntarily
leave and
return?

There are many hardworking Hispanic/American citizens that contribute
to our
country and many that I consider my true friends. We should encourage
and
accept those Hispanics who have done it the right and legal way.

It does, however, have everything to do with culture:

A third-world culture that does not value education, that accepts
children
getting pregnant and dropping out of school by 15 and that refuses to
assimilate, and an American culture that has become so weak and worried
about "politically correct" that we don't have the will to do anything
about
it.

If this makes your blood boil, as it did mine, forward this to everyone
you
know."

WE CERTAINLY NEVER HEAR ANYTHING LIKE THIS FROM THE MEDIA

A Message from

John & Mildred Hodshire

WindAndWater

May 8 2006, 10:04 PM

Since it hasn't been mentioned yet, I feel the need to point out that there are specific reasons why these people enter the United States illegally. Due to economic infeasability, or sanctions against their emmegration or immegration, they did not have the choice to enter the United States legally.

These are the reasons why I think illegal immigrants should be allowed citizenship after a number of years, and given legal residence until then:
1) They're indespesible to america's industries. If we somehow managed to deport them all our economy would crash overnight.
2) Humane reasons -- either you agree with them or you don't; I do. One that hasn't been mentioned yet is the fact that these immigrants can't protect themselves legally because they can't appear in court -- meaning that they can be denied wages, services, and their own property because they can't seek recompense.
3) Legalizing immigrants will raise the working wage, as there won't be an outlet of under-minimum-wage labor anymore. Yes it'd make that wage market more competitive, but immigrants are already occupying those jobs because of their willingness to work for lower pay.
4) Legalizing immigrants will actually drive down healthcare costs as currently they burden emergency rooms withouth being able to pay for treatment. Legalizing them will allow them to pay taxes and healthcare.

leeleelee

May 8 2006, 08:50 AM

In Australia being an Island we dont seem to have as much drama's. We have immigrants arrive on Boats from Indonesia and other countries, they are seeking escape from governments and possible jail etc.... But our government is pretty tough - we stick them in detetion centers until they are checked out- takes around 2 years etc.... In a jail ------ Tough------

Mich

May 8 2006, 05:52 AM

QUOTE
Charlie Daniels on Illegal Mexicans

I don't know how everybody else feels about it, but to me I think Hispanic people in this country, legally or illegally, made a huge public relations mistake with their recent demonstrations.

I don't blame anybody in the world for wanting to come to the United States of America, as it is a truly wonderful place. But when the first thing you do when you set foot on American soil is illegal, it is flat out wrong and I don't care how many lala land left heads come out of the woodwork and start trying to give me sensitivity lessons.

I don't need sensitivity lessons; in fact I don't have anything against Mexicans! I just have something against criminals and anybody who comes into this country illegally is a criminal and if you don't believe it try coming into America from a foreign country without a passport and see how far you get.

What disturbs me about the demonstrations is that it's tantamount to saying, "I am going to come into your country even if it means breaking your laws and there's nothing you can do about it."

It's an "in your face" action and speaking just for me I don't like it one little bit and if there were a half dozen pairs of gonads in Washington bigger than English peas it wouldn't be happening. Where are you, you bunch of lily livered, pantywaist, forked tongued, sorry excuses for defenders of The Constitution? Have you been drinking the water out of the Potomac again?

And even if you pass a bill on immigration it will probably be so pork laden and watered down that it won't mean anything anyway. Besides, what good is any other law going to do when you won't enforce the ones on the books now?

And what ever happened to the polls guys? I thought you folks were the quintessential finger wetters. Well you sure ain't paying any attention to the polls this time because somewhere around eighty percent of Americans want something done about this mess, and mess it is and getting bigger everyday.

This is no longer a problem; it is a dilemma and headed for being a tragedy. Do you honestly think that what happened in France with the Muslims can't happen here when the businesses who hire these people finally run out of jobs and a few million disillusioned Hispanics take to the streets?

If you, Mr. President, Congressmen and Senators, knuckle under on this and refuse to do something meaningful it means that you care nothing for the kind of country your children and grandchildren will inherit.

But I guess that doesn't matter as long as you get re-elected. Shame on you. One of the big problems in America today is that if you have the nerve to say anything derogatory about any group of people (except Christians) you are going to be screamed at by the media and called a racist, a bigot and anything else they can think of to call you.

Well I've been pounded by the media before and I'm still rockin' and rollin' and when it comes to speaking the truth I fear not. And the truth is that the gutless, gonad-less, milksop politicians are just about to sell out the United States of America because they don't have the intestinal fortitude to stand up to the face reality.

And reality is that we would never allow any other group of people to have 12 million illegals in this country and turn around and say, "Oh it's ok, ya'll can stay here if you'll just allow us to slap your wrist."
And I know that some of you who read this column are saying "Well what's wrong with that?" I'll tell you what's wrong with it. These people could be from Mars as far as we know. We don't know who they are, where they are or what they're up to and the way the Congress is going we're not going to.

Does this make sense? Labor force you say? We already subsidize corporate agriculture as it is, must we subsidize their labor as well? If these people were from Haiti or if they were from Somalia or Afghanistan would we be so fast to turn a blind eye to them? I think not.

All the media shows us are pictures of hard working Hispanics who have crossed the border just to try to better their life. They don't show you pictures of the Feds rounding up members of MS 13, the violent gang who came across the same way the decent folks did. They don't tell you about the living conditions of the Mexican illegals some fat cat hired to pick his crop.

I want to make two predictions.

No. 1: This situation is going to grow and fester until it erupts in violence on our streets while the wimps in Washington drag their toes in the dirt and try to figure how many tons of political hay they can make to the acre.

No 2: Somebody is going to cross that border with some kind of weapon of mass destruction and set it off in a major American city after which there will be a backlash such as this country has never experienced and the Capitol building in Washington will probably tilt as Congressmen and Senators rush to the other side of the issue.

I don't know about you but I would love to see just one major politician stand up and say, "I don't care who I make mad and I don't care how many votes I lose, this is a desperate situation and I'm going to lead the fight to get it straightened out."

I don't blame anybody for wanting to come to America, but if you don't respect our immigration laws why should you respect any others.

And by the way, this is America and our flag has stars and stripes. Please get that other one out of my face.

Pray for our troops

What do you think?

God Bless America

Charlie Daniels
April 3, 2006

Just thought I would add this to the commentary about this subject. This debate will never die I guess. I don't necessarily agree with singling out any one nationality, but the points are well made.

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