I just read the topic about Christianity that sounded like it was started by a middle school kid. This topic is to redeem the discussion of religion and creeds.

This is not a reply, but it is an initiative to start an intelligent discussion of religion or creeds.
This is a question to each person who reads this to tell the world what it is they believe and why.

What experiences in your life led you to these creeds? What group or people do you tend to disagree with most?

Note: Please distinguish between Atheist and Agnostic. I have talked to many people who call themselves atheists but just spend all their time trying to disprove other religions while not having a single conclusive reason for calling themselves Atheists. An atheist is a person who finds it so unlikely for a higher power to exist that they refuse to believe one exists or that they feel they have evidence to prove one doesnt exist. An agnostic is a person who doesnt believe there is any or enough proof to establish a higher being.

My response to my own question:

Now I am a Christian. I hope I dont say anything as mindless as that my religion or myself because of my religion is superior. In fact, I dont really believe that it is beneficial to me at all. That isnt the job of religion. I am a Christian because I believe it is true. If you want to know why read The Third Day by Sir Arnold Lunn (its been a while) and Mere Christianity. But also what was more important to my conversion actually happening is that really messed up stuff happened to me and my family that made me really look at what is right and what is wrong. I do not think we evolved a conscience; Otherwise it would be different... or maybe look at it this way. If we were to continue evolving, men are going to turn into people who just try to have sex with as many different women as possible. Our society supports fatherless children, and so we will either have that OR individuals will decide for themselves. I learned from the father roles in my life, not by their example, but by their counter example. I know what is right and wrong, its not something that my father passed on to me or something culture instilled in me. It isnt what church taught me... It is what I know I need to do to live my whole life infront of the world and not be ashamed.

Ok so if I look at the Bible and what Jesus said; I find that what I believe to be right or wrong is verified by what I read. Take lust for example. It is easy to think that its impossible not to and as it is unavoidable it must be ok to do. But it is equally easy to not want your girly to want other guys. And so there is a disconnect. We know what is right but we cannot do it. It is this disconnect that I believe a perfect man, a humiliated God died for. I am not trying to convert anyone.

I believe in what is steady and unchanging in Christianity. Not the fads. For example in the 70s and early 80s it was popular to try to convert people by saying that God had a plan and purpose for their lives. It is just retarded to say that to someone. Or Jesus wants a personal relationship with you. It is like saying 'Billy has a plan and purpose for your life.' I think I would slap the person that said that to me. Its like just some trick that you would pull on a monkey to take advantage of their curiosity.

Oooo.. Here is another one of those I really hate. 'Jesus will fill the void inside of you.' For me it is more like Jesus taught me to not think like a hedonist and know that a void inside of me is something deficient with my personality not something I need to encounter and consume. Lots of Christians are fat. If they really trusted God to fill the void they would stop stuffing their faces. Do you know what would hit the spot right now??? A cold beer, a T-Bone steak, and my girly having sex with me right now. If God's purpose was to fill the void then Ronald McDonald would be a holy prophet.
So as for the Christian conservative majority, I disagree. For beliefs and morality based on rationality, personal responsibility, and a care for other people, I agree.

I must say, i agree with you. There are too many "christians" out there. And too many people out there that play the "religion game". Unfortunately, that makes us, the ones that properly do things, look bad. But, what's even worse are the ones that killed in the name of God. Bah! Many people just go to church just to go.. A church is a place to learn. Not so you can boast about that you go there.. You think you need to dress up nice to go to church? Only the priests do. Everyone else can go casually. Another thing, for those who pray out in public, where everyone can see them, even on T.V., that's not right.. You're supposed to pray inside closed doors. And many other stuff, i cant think of at the moment.

I think as far as TV goes, there is only one person I would let my children watch. If you take Pat Robertson for example, he makes the news basically only when he is making a fool of himself and other Christians. And there are always ridiculous things on some of those channels... like a guy preaching to his church that the Catholic church was the anti-Christ.
It turns out that many times some of these Penecostal people are so focused on their 'God' that they forget his purpose's. I am not sure, but it seems to me that many of them talk much more about helping people than they actually do. I am on the Penecostal side of things kinda and this is part of what I see wrong with things.

I trusted in Jesus simply because my life was falling down around me. I started questioning God and trying to "bargain" with Him and while life didn't get any easier, I started seeing ironies and coincidences in my life on incredible levels. They led me to seek God more and I started examining the Bible and realizing more and more, and how much of it was truth. Then on August 5, 1998, in a Christian summercamp, I heard the good news of the Gospel preached. I had no problem accepting I was a sinner, just recently a recurring thought for me had been "I'm the most evil person in the world." I was living so bad a life even I couldn't excuse my actions, and I knew I needed to change. It was more then just the torture inside of me that made me want to change, but how I was translating my pain to others around me, including those I cared about.

As a Christian, I know the only difference between me and the unsaved is God's grace. Being a Christian doesn't mean I'm better, it just means I found mercy. I don't claim to be flawless, I claim to have admitted I'm not, and in so repenting to have found mercy through my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I don't claim to have the answers, I claim to know the One who does have them, Jesus Christ. What true answers I've found have been given by Him and the way I've learned is by listening as objectively as I can to all questions and questioners, looking into things for myself, and most of all, admitting when I'm wrong even if I don't like it. Without humility, the learning of anything meaningful (which is often controversial) is nearly impossible. I have learned that giving a person the right answer doesn't mean as much as how you give it. Better to live the truths you have found and not speak them then to speak them and not live them.

I don't claim a philosophy saved me, or a religion, or a doctrine, or a church, or a special prayer. I was saved by Jesus. My faith is in a man, a man who is God, a man who is different in that He loved unconditionally, was kind to all in need. He worked miracles and awed others with His power over nature, and was witnessed by many that He never died, but ascended into Heaven where He even now is, and His power over all the elements of nature is as absolute as it ever was.

Furthermore, I have held up the Bible and Jesus for the past 5 years to the questions of all. I have seen my faith in its reliability and validity grow by leaps and bounds even though I'd made an eternal commitment to trusting them rather then anyone or anything else. Even though I consider Jesus and the Bible's reality and authority unquestionable, having placed my trust in them eternally, I listen to the questions of others that I may help them realize that trust in God does not mean intellectual suicide, as Josh McDowell says. Sooner or later one has to take a leap of faith upon seeing enough evidence to persuade them eternally, but that evidence may have been as great as the physical proof given to Thomas or the intellectual legal arguments of Paul.

I have seen some of the greatest objections to the Bible answered like the atheist's "Problem of Evil" and "Free Will" arguments, as well as questions about why supposed "Christians" have done evils in the name of Christianity. I have seen supposed contradictions in the Bible's logic fall apart upon examination. I have seen scientific evidences like the bombardier beetle and examination of what singularities are make alternate theories to Biblical truths look foolish and unlearned. I have seen the Bible held up to the same standards of historical reliability (internal evidence, external evidence, and bibliography) as other historical documents, only to see it has so great a weight of evidence to back up its validity and reliability as to be embarrassing in contrast with all other historical documents in history. I have seen and personally examined the hundreds of Messianic prophecies, written thousands of years before Jesus was even born (physically), that foretold where He would be born, what others would say about Him, how much He'd be betrayed for, and even the exact manner of death for Him foretold long before the Roman empire even existed to invent it!

I don't have all the answers but if I ever run into one I can't answer, I have already long ago seen so much truth and proof for the Bible and Jesus that I will simply side with the Bible and Jesus because of the "track record" you could say. For example, if you find a book that has 999 truths to it and then see that 1 you can't figure out and could possibly be wrong, does that mean you decide it is wrong and the book is faulty? No, it means you simply may not be smart enough to figure it out, there is not evidence enough to realize its truth, or that you may have misread what it was saying. Also, I may see how it COULD still be truth or how it could be true even though I don't know all the details, meaning I can't absolutely say it's a lie.

A book that has been around for a while and mostly just discusses evidence for Jesus life on earth is The Third Day by Sir Arnold Lunn. If you are actually to read it, it has pretty strong arguements for basically the most important part of Christianity there is. That Jesus existed and was who he said he was and was crucified for us.

Link to the text.

But others who run across, I did not mean this topic to be Christian at all. So please post.

I would recommend "More Than A Carpenter" by Josh McDowell. It's recent, a short and easy read, inexpensive, concise, and very, very good.

OK first i would like to say i believe in no God. And there is a reason why. No, not because i think it's dumb or i hate christians, jews, ect, but because of my school.

When i went to school (a private catholic one) i found out how little evidence and how much lies are being spewed into little children. Some of the lies they told us were these things:

• If you believe in God with all your heart you can levitate
• If you say bloody mary 3 times in a dark room looking in the mirror youll see mary
• santa is real (haha don't want to make this do depressing)
• If you do not believe in Jesus you wont be accepted into heaven

There are many more but i have proved all, but the last one wrong. For the last though, they said even if you live in another land where they don't even know of Jesus you wont get into heaven unless you accept him at the gates to heaven. What i have to say about that is. That's is just DUMB. Not only is it not thought out, but it really is just stupid. What about Ghandi? Let's say there is Jesus. You think he wouldn't let him in? I don't know of anyone who dosnt think he is a great person.

Another thing is they don't do as they say EVER. Do not kill? I could come up with over a million times christians have killed. A TRUE chrisian would never kill. Even in war they should not kill. They should not join the army then. This is one thing that people never have a good argument for. Because there is none. And also our divorce rate will exceed people who stay together in 3 years (in the USA) and it just so happens that Christians are the majority here.

If christians, jews, muslims, all follow there beliefs this world would be a great place. And i think there was a Jesus at sometime. I also think there was a Buddha. Because of these lies i have been told it makes me hard to believe in any religion.


Now before people get mad at me i got to say I have no problem with people believing in whatever they want to, but i HATE it when they try to get others to think the same way. Keep it to your self.

And with that thought i let you go lol.

OK, but seriously no hate mail

The first point and the fourth point are the core of Christianity. The salvation, incarnation of Jesus and his Resurrection . Accept that or you are not Christian. As in Islam you become Muslim if you confirm two points: "No God but Allah and Mohamed is God's messenger"

The third point was misunderstanding of you. When they said that Santa is Real they mean that St Nicholas , the Bishop in Turkey but not the American fair tales of Santa. The same I spoke about real Santa in this two posting to this forum:
St Nicolas: http://www.trap17.com/forums/index.php?sho...c=31564&hl=kasm
Evolution of santa http://www.trap17.com/forums/index.php?sho...c=31566&hl=kasm

The second point is fantasy, nobody say that of sure. When I saw St Mary in 1968 in Cairo with million, the Vatican sent delegation to investigate the matter: see my part of posting in:
http://www.trap17.com/forums/index.php?sho...c=33658&hl=Mary
http://www.sedrak.trap17.com/st-mary.htm
By the way you asked no hate post and in the same time you come to threat and