[NOTE: Sometimes in my statements about science or religion, I can get a bit athiest, if you may be offended don't read, but ill try my hardest not to be athiest]

First of all: how did god create the world? Who created god? How does he exist although he is never found? How can he be "watching over all of us" when the world has billions of people and he is 1 thing. Everybody has done bad things. Because of a person killing themselves, we are forgiven.. who is forgiving us? What are they going to do? If we go to hell or heaven, how come nobody, not even physics can view this place.


It is unexplainable at the moment how the chemicals, and space were formed to create a big bang. Radiation, planet travelling and more proves of the big bang. The spinning formation of these gases compresses them into stars, these stars can grow to be planets. Absolutely everything is made up of elements, your body structure could be like this (on larger scale though) : co5H3b3...............
When these mix together, this is when microorganisms are formed. These evolve into larger creatures over thousands of billions of years. I do not need to explain the scientific details of this, but wikipedia has good, moderated information!


Evolution is actually EXTREMELY simple, except it takes such a long time, that the number of watches above, is probably about a tenth of a billionth of what evolution to a trilobite took. How did god become so complex and amazing, you say we are complex... can we build a world? God didnt evolve so he was just magically amazing?

To explain god.. how was he here before anything? He must of been here after space and time? How did such a smart thing be made without billions of years of evolution and learning.

Yes, we are extremely complex, but its all scientifically explainable. For god to be able to watch every single person, listen to their prayers (about 1 every 2 seconds starts) is not! And how god came about... its not explainable without using the fact that he was always there or "something" Well, if you use an arguement "who put all the chemicals and gases and elements into the universe," the same answer could be given "they were always there!"

People who join religions join it when they are scared, or sucked in. For example, my grandfather used to not be into it, but he hert his back and ran to church. Not because he believed, because he thought that there may be something in it.

4160 Days Are Spent At Church... Why?

Wow. Seriously? Looks like you haven't kept up with the last couple thousand years of science.


Wow, what else are you gonna cook up next? Ooh I know, you'll buy yourself a car, and then if it breaks, you'll rant to everybody about how much that car sucks and that every model of that car ever made should be recycled, because you're all knowing like that.

Ok I get your points there. Its my opinion and I put a warning there for people who may be offended. There are lots of people who will agree with me, and many that will disagree.

1.I am a Scientist (B.Sc , M.Sc & Ph.D) in Science and with Master in Systems Engineering and many others disciplines(Operations Research, Economics, Finance, Accounting, Project Managements,..) But I am believe in God as many other Scientist do now and in past. So science and spirituality can go together. If there are seem some contradictions then we wait and try to solve them. It is important to read my posting in the forum :
I am Scientists but I believe in God

2. It is very important to be quite clear about using the terminology : Science, Theory and Evolutions.

3. For definition of Science and Scientific Theory read my postings : : What Is Science? And What Is The Scientific Method? And What Is Scientific Hypothesis And Scientific Theory?

4. There are 6 types of Evolutions : Cosmic Evolution -Chemical Evolution- stellar, Organic , Macro Evolution and Micro Evolution . See their defination in the quotations down taken from a previous post to the forum]. But I will concerate on this posting on Macro and micro Evolution which related to Darwinism. Macro Evolution (Large-scale, or major changes from one kind of life form to another while Micro Evolution (small-scale, or minor changes and adaptations within a population of life forms i.e. the variation within the kinds. Micor Evolution is a science since we can observe. But Macro Evolution and all the other types of evolutions can't observe or approve so they are Historical Science. see my post at: For details of the 6 types, see the last quotion from a previous post.

5. All types of Evolutions except micro evolution are not Science or Scientific Theory. See my post
Evolution is not Science nor Scientific Theory

6. Believing in God is not Science but faith. Exactly the big bang theory, Darwinism or Evolution [except Micro-Evolution]. Who believe in God doesn't need exact proof. That why it called belief or faith. But any belief has bases. Who believe in star evolution believe that "The sky could have been created from some kind of star exploding or something. " . They believe in that belief without any proof. The same who believe in big bang haven't exact proof but it is their belief.

7. In replying to dark_viking-m For the boy/guy/man who doesn't believe that we evoluted from monkeys (primates to be more precise), how do you explain our "tail"? (that thing called coxix) Coxix is the proof of our evolution. 2nd, how do you explain our similar acts? protecting the child, the male is who hunts, the female take care of the nest. 3rd, how do you explain our similar brain? 4th, 5 fingers on each hand? what other species has it? That not mean is that is evolved of that. If you want explanation of many similarities is the designer is the same or learned from the same source. If you find two computers have some similarity: hard drive, chips, cd, cpu etc but they can from different types PC or apple or mac they are not involved from the same. How you explain that the eye of man [the top category ] is less complicated than eye of another creature. How you explain that human child can't live without support for many years to eat or to learn to walk or talk while the chick is very lower in the ladder can hatch by itself then move and eat alone. There are many but enough this time.

8. I will quote next from one of previous posting to show why Scientists are believe in God. They do because they logically think deeply about phenomena and events as examples only , I will list some:

QUOTE

1- Until now we couldn't create a tiny cell from scratch.

2- Until now and after about 50 years in space , we didn't visit in the universe except Earth's Sputnik, the moon. There are 7 and now 9 planets in our Sun System. Every star is similar to the Sun has its planets, and every planet has its moon or moons. Moreover group of star constitute Galaxy and Galaxies constitute,... etc etc....

3- Why our planet the earth has all facilities to survive, the atmosphere protect it, the oxygen and Carbon balances, the gravity, The Sun and the moon to give it light and warm and stability, etc etc

4- Our body systems why they are the way they are. The miracles of Heart, the miracles of the blood, the respiratory system, Nerve system, the defense imune system, the hormones, our eyes, ears, kidneys, livers, stomach, tongue ...and our reproduction system. How the pregnancy happen and how the body works when pregnancy happen. How the mother start to produce milk before giving birth etc etc.. Why these months in womb.etc etc..

5- Why we die if we in water without support while the fish and other water creation die if they left the water.

6- the cycle of reproductions in plants or some animal creations as the butterflies,...

7- there is another pressure in plant than animal.

8- Ants and Bees kingdom.

9- The system and characteristic of Camel to make him to survive and walk in deserts and walks on sands.

10- The immigration of birds and fish by thousands of miles.

11- We breath Oxygen and produce Carbon Oxide and the Plants use Carbon Oxide to produce to us Oxygen

Here is the 6 types of evolution. .

QUOTE

(i) Cosmic Evolution (the origin of space, time, matter and energy from nothing, there are 5 different theories competing . Each has its strength or weakness. The famous one the "big bang" theory does not address the major question, "where did everything come from?" . How did this explosion cause order, while every explosion causes only disorder and dist ructions? Also the Big Bang also violates two out of three Laws of Thermodynamics);

(ii) Chemical Evolution:(the development of the higher elements from hydrogen- assumtions);

iii) Stellar and Planetary Evolution (the origin of stars and planets amount to anything more than "fairy tales," and imagination has no part in real science);

iv) Organic Evolution (the origin of organic life. Spontaneous Generation as the Origin of Life, despite the apparent contradiction to empirical science). Francesco Redi and Louis Pasteur have succeeded in disproving Spontaneous Generation long time ago.

(v) Macro Evolution (Large-scale, or major changes from one kind of life form to another (assumption) involving innovations in structure or body plan, or new organs. Nothing aproved that happen and is still lack of transitional fossils in the fossil record, and the harmful trend of genetic mutation. ,

(vi) Micro Evolution (small-scale, or minor changes and adaptations within a population of life forms i.e. the variation within the kinds). This observed and documented. It does not result in leaps between one kind of life form and another, but in a wide variation of types of this same form. Although we observe many varieties within the group, a finch remains a finch, a virus a virus, a moth a moth, etc. We are familiar with breeding process to produce various kinds of horses, cows, cheep, dogs, cats,...etc.. The "variation within a kind" is what Darwin observed in the mid-1800's, and what we still observe today... Also We all know and recognize the viruses and bacteria development as well as the development of the defiance system But no scientist has ever seen a host animal develop a new defense mechanism causing it to evolve into a higher life-from; similarly, no one has ever witnessed a parasite develop a new, improved attack method that ultimately resulted in its transformation into a new species. (macro evolution if occurred) .

I'm terribly sorry, but I'm afraid you've 'replied' to the wrong person. If I'd originally posted the above, you'd know it was me as I'd've spelled 'coxix' as coccyx (if we're having a 'who's got what qualifications' contest: BSc (hons) Archaeological Science with Medicine, MSc (Distinction) Forensic Anthropology). I'm sorry but I can't reply to the rest of your post as I'm concerned I'd misinterpret some of your points, based on your post's grammar. Replying may just lead to confusion and bad feelings where none were originally intended, and I genuinely cannot understand much of what you wrote.

I'd also suggest, to anyone curious enough to research scientific theory, the Theory of Evolution and so on, to research these concepts fully and not solely rely on posts on an open source public forum. Peer-reviewed journals are the best places to start.

This post has been edited by Dark_Viking: Dec 13 2007, 11:27 PM

I read everything above and in conclusion..without any prior knowledge, I think god created everything, including the universe etc.
From what I have read, we live in the realm of time and space. God exists outside of these and so is not limited by them as we are so used to thinking. The concept is difficult for us to comprehend, because we live within time but with thinking we can comprehend a little of it.

Let me explain or summarise or recap hope you will understand me. After that summary read again my first post:

1. The thread topic is Science and spirituality . I said I am scientisy but believer. And I explain that
and refer to my old post of mine.

2. Somebody mention the Evolution . I responded and asking to have say which Evolution he/she refer to. I explained that there are 6 types of Evolution : Cosmic, Chemical, Stellar, organic, Macro [Darwinism] and micro Evolution. Saying Evolution without its type make the decussion naieve

3. Then I said all mentioned type of Evolution is not Science or even Scientific Theory. To explain that I give quotation of definition of Science or Scientific Theory. There are in text book and philosphy of cience books. but I refered to some in the net instead giving printing reference. Thest sites are refered to these books. Also I gave the legal defition of science by High Court

4. Then I said the relegion and the Evolution [except the micr Evolution ] are faith and belief. Both of them can't approved but you beleve in them by another measures. I referred to another previous post in the forum.

5. One mention the tail as proof for evolution then I responded saying that the similarities doesn't mean the things evolved from other and explained my opinion.

6. Using quotion for the definition of science and scientific thories were necessary. Also quotation from my previous postings in the trap forum were necessary that not accusing me by spam.

7. By the way I studied Darwinism Evolution 49 years ago when I was 14 years and volunterly because in that time it wasn't compulsary subject. NOW I involved in it deeply but the threat not for it.