The Catholic church want us to believe in God, Jesus, Mary etc... but why is it when people claim to have spoken to God, this same church poor water on the idea. Odd hey! Did three children speak with the mother of God in 1917 or not. If they didn't its a fraud. If they did...

I found a site, which really puts the story of the 1917 Fatima apparitions into perspective. Once you realize that the witnesses to the apparitions were young children, you can quickly start to imagine the manipulation that might (would) have occurred. Our Lady would not have appeared to 3 innocent children and then frighten them with stories and visions of hell. That is absurd. Although this site is promoting a book (the one Mel Gibson has purchased for film rights) the simple synopsis of the events in Fatima make more sense than anything I have read.

www.3rdsecretoffatima.com

I don't like the Catholics beliefs because they say you need a Priest. Which you don't. The Bible says only one mediator between man and God. And that is Jesus Christ. Mary isn't anyone special, and I don't think she was born without sin. If she did, she could have saved us. Mary was definitely a tool used by god, but she was just another person. Another thing is that the Catholic Church also literally worships Saints. Which I thing is wrong. God gets all the glory, not anyone else. Just my opinion.

As far as the appearances, I believe they are not real. Illusions. Maybe even the devil. Mary is not alive, she is waiting in the ground Christ's second coming. Only a few were selected to go to heaven without the pain of death. And the Bible doesn't say Mary was one of them.

I probably shouldn't mention any of my athiest views at all, in a thread like this, but I'll agree with ya. The more stuff you read, and the more you try to understand it for yourself instead of just having faith in what you've been told.... the less sense it actually makes ;.;

I guess some people will say you just should have blind faith in your creator, since all of this 'God stuff' is too much for a mere person to understand... but I was born and raised in the Show Me state, so that's not good enough for me ^^;;
(Not that there aren't a lot of Christians running around in Missouri.. I know my parents and sister are believers ^^; )

The Catholic Church says a priest is needed in order to properly relate to the Bible. There are so many allusions to ancient culture, history, and language that people educated in such areas are almost mandatory to do any serious Bible study. The Church also prides itself in apastolic succession: every priest can be traced back through their trainers to the original apostles. So you see, there is reason behind having priests aid in interpreting the Bible.

As to Mary, she was not born without sin in the Catholic view. Mary was given absolution after she bore Christ, and she remained sinless thereafter.

As to Saints, Catholics do not worship them. They pray to them in order that they might intercede for them to God. The Saints are patrons and patronesses of various things, they understand in particular that of which they are patron. A zookeeper having troubles with his animals, for instance, may pray to St. Francis, who is patron saint of animals so he could better relate his worries to God. In no way do Catholics revere saints in the same way or on the same level as God.

Catholics also have sources for belief outside the Bible. They have to be some of the greatest bureaucrats and graphomaniacs ever to have existed, Catholics. Catholics have included in their Bibles books not contained in non-Catholic Bibles (Wisom, Sirach, Baruch, et al.) Catholic docrine also draws on Gnostic sources and writings not contained in any Bible I'm aware of.

1. Before I start, I say that I am Coptic Orthodox Christian and not Roman Catholic.

2.In every religion, there are initial basic faith. That why it is called faith. you have to believe it or not. but there are many in re legions is not basic faith and you apply your mind and not be blind eyed. All Christian are believing in these elements.

3. In Christianity, the core elements is believing in Salvation, Trinity, bible. In Islam you believe in one God "Alaha" and Mohamed is his messenger then believe in Koran book is from Alah.

4. It is not right to say that you need a priest to communicate with God (Alah). People before Abraham and after him are communicating with God until our days. There are many recent communication stories of communicating with God or St Mary or other saints. Churches is not opposing that or controlling that. Only churches investigate the claim if it was gone public and they have right to do that.

5. The priest is needed for other service other than the communication with God. It is similar to that you need Parliament, government to practice your rights and your freedom.

6. Many call to not faith blinded but in the same time they was lead with one film here or one book there and in our Internet time one site . It is very contradiction thing or Hippocratic.

7. There are many stories in Egyptian monasteries about God communication. Of course you will jump to say what prove that? You can not say that while some believe in one book here or one film there. In next paragraph will tell you my experience when I saw St Mary by myself personally

8. SisterMay concluded wrongly "Our Lady would not have appeared to 3 innocent children and then frighten them with stories and visions of hell". But what if I tell that I saw St Mary in 1968 when I was 25 years old after four year from my graduation of Faculty of Science. The witnesses were millions with the media. I saw her when St Marry was appeared for many days around the top of St marry Church at Zeitoun of Cairo in Egypt and millions saw that [including Muslims]. I couldn't stand in one place from people pressure. I had to move with the crowd with the flow through the four perpenduclar steet around the Church. The Vatican has sent their delegation to investegat and confirmed that [this church is not Catholic Church]. All skeptics , unbelievers, non-christian, non-orthodox exhusted all their investgations to explain the mattert. So please don't jump to quick explanation and find simple explanation sitting in your place. Even the Egyptian Islamic government recognized that and gifted the opposite land [was government bus depot] to build another bigger church. It was the easiest church built in Egypt without the hard condition to build a church.


For details visit:
- RealVideo clips on the apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Zeitoun, Egypt (1968-1971)
- The Apparitions of the Blessed Holy Virgin Mary to Millions in the Coptic Orthodox Church in Zeitoun, Cairo, Egypt (1968-1970)
- Mr. Wagih Rizk Collection of Photos of the Zeitoun Apparitions of Virgin Mary and the Story of the Great Miracle the Virgin Did to Him
- Scraps and Photos from Arabic Newspapers on the Apparitions of Virgin Mary at Zeitoun, Egypt (Translated to English)
- Scraps and Photos from English and French Newspapers on the Apparitions of Virgin Mary at Zeitoun, Egypt
- Onlline Book: When Millions Saw Mary - Zeitoun (1968-1971) by Francis Johnston
- Online Book: Our Lord's Mother Visits Egypt in 1968 & 1969 by Pearl Zaki

This post has been edited by kasm: Mar 3 2006, 03:45 AM

Worshipping Saints is a bad thing. In the Ten Commandments, one of them is,"Though shall not worship any other God(person) before me." It's something like. (I don't know how to spell the first word ) But you should only worship God and not anyone else. Otherwise your going against the Ten Commandments, something you believe in and think you follow.

1. I am Coptic Orthodox not Roman Catholic. We have not statues in our Churches but we have pictures. We also ask intercession of saints especiall St Mary.

2. Even I am noy Catholic but the truth is they are not worship St Mary .

3. When you ask intercession of saints you do as when ask somebody else to pray for you or when askink people to pray for someone in intensive care in hospital.

4. When you bow before picture, you show the respect. It is exactly as you bow for King or Queen or bishop or parents in olden days.

5. Dislike Protestant , St Mary has her position in Othodox Churches as the mother of God and Catholic give her more status. She who was suffering the accusation during her pregnancyfrom her relative and her city. She who saw her son crocified then assended from the earth i.e misseed him. How we consider her as anybody else. Do we reward the soldiers for their activities and sacrifies?

6. But I assure you that no Christian in any section worship other God in trinity.

7. We respect and honour saints. We regularly give it to public officials. In the United States, australia and Eurpean countrireies, it is customary to address a judge as "Your Honor." In Australia , member of parlament are addressed to "The Honorable member ...." . God commanded us to honour our parents. Many examples in new or old testament to honour old peoples, bishops, priests, rulers,... etc. So, if there can be nothing wrong with honoring the living, who still have an opportunity to ruin their lives through sin, there certainly can be no argument against giving honor to saints whose lives are done and who ended them in sanctity. If people should be honored in general, God’s special friends certainly should be honored.

8. By the way for many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British, Australian and may others refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship,". An attempt to distinguish between the honor due to God and that due to humans is to use the words adore. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, "We adore God but we honor his saints"

9. May be some public naive people don't understand these explanations. In my opinion, it was better that these practices to be stoped in public to stop this unnecessary discussions.

I am a Catholic and we do not "worship" Saints. We only pray to them for guidance and to pray for us. Same thing with the Virgin Mary, we do not consider her as God-like and we do not worship her. We only pray to them for guidance and to pray for us.